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[P]
Male circumcision in America damages sexual relations (Culture)

By tiger
Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 09:00:19 AM EST

Culture

Unlike most of the world, America circumcises the majority of its males (see the map). This American cultural practice started around 1870, and peaked around 1979 at a circumcision rate of 85%; the current circumcision rate in America has been declining since 1979, and was about 57% in 1998 (source). America’s practice of male circumcision has even been exported to South Korea.

Male circumcision (aka male genital mutilation or MGM), done to the majority of infant males in America, leaves the victim, once he is grown, in a state of ignorance, because he has no experience being natural (aka intact or non-circumcised). Thus, he can assume that what he gets from sexual activity, in terms of sensations and feelings, is all that there is to get. However, there is strong evidence to the contrary. And it is not just the man who is affected; women are affected too when they have sex with circumcised men.

 


Male circumcision weakens the bonds between men and women, by making sex between them less satisfying. The following statements made by men who were circumcised as adults make the destructive and harmful nature of male circumcision clear:

Wearing a condom or wearing a glove ... sight without color would be a good analogy ... only being able to see in black and white ... rather than seeing in full color would be like experiencing an orgasm with a foreskin and without. There are feelings you’ll just never have without the foreskin. (Paul Tardiff, circumcised at 30, NOCIRC Circumcision Video, by Marilyn Milos, RN, and Sheila Curran, RN)

AND

My newly naked glans [after the operation] was protected from irritation with bandages ... Slowly the area lost its sensitivity and as it did I realized I had lost something rather vital. Stimuli that had previously aroused ecstasy had relatively little effect ... The acute sensitivity never returned. Something rather precious to a sensual hedonist had been lost forever ... My experience ... is ... that circumcision destroys a very joyful aspect of the human experience for both males and females. (NOCIRC Newsletter)

AND

I did decide to get circumcised at age 28, mainly because I had heard that it was much easier to keep clean ... I found that the negatives of circumcision far outweighed the minor benefit of a slight improvement in hygiene. I wound up being very sorry that I had become circumcised because of a major loss of sexual enjoyment after the circumcision. I found that the loss of my foreskin led to a drying out of the head of my penis and a resulting loss of sensitivity ... But the biggest factor in the loss of sexual enjoyment was that I no longer had a foreskin to massage the head of my penis during intercourse and masturbation. I no longer had skin moving tightly back and forth across the head of my penis, which had provided a great deal of pleasure previously. I still consider the decision to get circumcised the biggest mistake in my life. (R.P. [quoted], Tulsa, The Joy of Uncircumcising!, by Jim Bigelow, PhD, Hourglass Book Publishing, 1995)

AND

My wife would chew on my foreskin. That would drive me out of my mind. Now I think someone could chew the head off and I might not feel it. (Private communication from a man circumcised in his early 30’s)

[for the above four items: source]

In some cases, the effects of male circumcision are downright painful, such as for women when the man is circumcised. The following statements made by women who have had sex with both natural and circumcised men make the destructive and harmful nature of male circumcision clear:

There is a huge difference in sex with uncut [natural] and cut [circumcised] men, and most women who’ve had both, prefer uncut. I’ll never have another cut partner. My body can’t handle the rough painful sex they need in order to finally squeeze out a cum, because most of the feeling has been cut away, and they’ve been left dried out and insensitive. [a guestbook comment by an Australian woman: source]

AND

Intercourse with a circumcised man and intercourse with an uncircumcised man are two entirely different experiences. I can always tell from the feeling alone whether or not a man is circumcised. Circumcised men take longer to ejaculate. They have to work at it. (From a conversation with a prostitute) [source]

AND

I became obsessed with the idea that my boyfriend should be circumcised. We were very happy together, and much in common, and best of all we were very compatible in bed. But I refused to get married until he was circumcised—and he gave in.

That little operation completely destroyed our life together. Before he had fabulous staying power, but after the operation he would have an orgasm in five minutes and leave me high and dry. To make things worse, sex became very painful to me. Twice I had to see a doctor due to minor infections from the chafing. Our beautiful sexual togetherness became a nightmare of staying creams, lubricants and frustrations.

He says he will never forgive me, and we no longer speak to each other…but I cannot forget what a stupid mistake I made which altered the life of a lovely person. (Carolyn LaRoc, letter to Playgirl, February 1975) [source]

AND

One of the keynotes of the book [Sex As Nature Intended It, by Kristen O'Hara] is its unique survey of [American] women who have had the comparative experience of sexual intercourse with both circumcised and uncircumcised men. If you’re like the majority of women in the survey, you’ve found intercourse with your “natural” partner a highly rewarding experience—much more pleasurable than the intercourse you experienced with circumcised men. …

The aforementioned survey of women—women who have had sexual experience with both types of penises—unearthed many mind-boggling revelations. Such as these:

  • Women were more than 4 times likelier to achieve vaginal orgasm when the man had a natural penis.
  • Women experienced considerably more discomfort during intercourse when the man had a circumcised penis.
  • Premature ejaculation was significantly more common with circumcised partners.
  • Surveyed women overwhelmingly preferred sex with the natural penis by a margin of 9 to 1.

One riveting aspect of the book is the author’s own tastefully erotic, dynamic story about her “circumcised experiences” and her discovery of the wonders of “natural sex.” [source]

AND

During my circumcised intercourses, I felt violated or used—like I was just a piece of meat—even with my husband.

With my current natural partner, I feel warm, tender, soft, and beautiful. But during circumcised intercourse, I would often get aggravated emotionally. I have cried after many of my circumcised sexual experiences—feeling so empty and not knowing why. I have never cried or felt this way with a natural partner. [from the book Sex As Nature Intended It, p. 22]

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Poll
Male circumcision in America
should be illegal, like female circumcision is.
should be legal but discouraged.
should be left to the parents.
other

Votes: 37
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o map
o source
o South Korea
o More on Culture
o Also by tiger

Voting Record
Current score:-20
Total votes: 177

The following lists show who voted which way on this story. Select a name and click the "User Info" button next to the list for more information about a particular user. "(FP)" denotes a vote for the Front Page.

Scores look weird? Read this.


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Male circumcision in America damages sexual relations | 34 comments (10 topical, 24 editorial, 0 pending) | Post A Comment | Edit Story
[new] source (5.00 / 1) (#34)
by tiger on Mon Mar 11th, 2002 at 02:43:18 AM EST

It has been a week since I posted my story. I did not give a link to my own article at my website, which was my source for the body of my Kuro5hin story, because I did not want to prejudice others. However, that is no longer a factor. So, here is the current version of the relevant article: Monotheism and Imperialism Go Together

My thanks to twi: I put revised versions of both my answers to your 2 problems into my Monotheism and Imperialism Go Together article. I had noticed the first objection you raised myself, but did not decide to mention and explain it in my article until after I read your comment. Your second objection was something I had not thought of. I copied your second objection into my article (spelling errors corrected), and attribute it to a person who had read my argument.

My thanks to Eloquence: I added a large footnote to my American Culture article, in which I quote both from your Defending the Right to Pleasure, and from an item you had linked to in that article. When crediting the quote from your article, I used your name, Erik Möller, as the author name, instead of Eloquence.

[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] 2 problems (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by twi on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 08:32:16 AM EST

> Circumcised men take longer to ejaculate. They have to work at it.
[...]
> Premature ejaculation was significantly more common with circumcised partners.

So what is it ? Either some of your sources are lying (or stupid) or the cicumcised men realy are very diverse in which case it would be very hard to find a correlation to the circumcision at all.

My second objection is, that the cut babys don't necessarily evolve the same as uncut babys, so I'm not sure that later they realy feel the same as men who where cut as adults. Those men only know how beeing cut as adults is, and wether they think that is a good idea (or not). The truth is, there is nobody who can know both sides of the baby-version.

[ Reply to This | ]
[new] reply to "2 problems" (5.00 / 2) (#27)
by tiger on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 06:53:53 PM EST



> Circumcised men take longer to ejaculate. They have to work at it. [...]
> Premature ejaculation was significantly more common with circumcised partners.

So what is it ? Either some of your sources are lying (or stupid) or the cicumcised men realy are very diverse in which case it would be very hard to find a correlation to the circumcision at all.


The explanation is that the first comment, “Circumcised men take longer to ejaculate”, was made by a prostitute, and the “Premature ejaculation was significantly more common with circumcised partners”, is a result of a survey of 138 American women who are, presumably, not prostitutes.

In case you didn’t know, the last thing a guy with a prostitute has on his mind is trying to please her. After all, she is only doing it for the money. On the other hand, intercourse in a non-money relationship is more of a mutual experience, and the man is free to make the experience last as long as he wants, as long as his partner is also pleased by it. There is none of the implicit rush that a prostitute has, which is to get her current customer to orgasm so she can move on to the next customer.

What seems to be the case, is that the average natural man can orgasm more quickly and easily than the average circumcised man, if he wants to, and, likewise, the average natural man can delay orgasm more easily than the average circumcised man. The explanation is that the natural man has what he was born with, giving him more control over the sexual experience. The natural man does not “have to work at it”, using a lot of force and concentration to reach orgasm, which is the case for the circumcised man.


My second objection is, that the cut babys don't necessarily evolve the same as uncut babys, so I'm not sure that later they realy feel the same as men who where cut as adults. Those men only know how beeing cut as adults is, and wether they think that is a good idea (or not). The truth is, there is nobody who can know both sides of the baby-version.


You make a good point in suggesting that “cut babys don't necessarily evolve the same as uncut babys”. However, it is not true that “there is nobody who can know both sides of the baby-version”, because of what is known as foreskin restoration. Men who were circumcised as babies, and then restored their foreskins when adult (typically by causing growth of new skin to cover the head of the penis), typically report very substantial increases in their sensitivity, and a very substantial improvement in the sexual experience. For example, a personal site I was reading just a couple of days ago, by Roy Payne, details the big improvements in feeling that he got (he was circumcised as a baby, and did not begin his foreskin restoration until he was in his 50s). He calls his restored foreskin a fauxskin, since it is not exactly the same as having a true foreskin (certain nerves and muscles in the natural foreskin are not in the restored foreskin). As a more general resource on foreskin restoration, see The National Organization of Restoring Men.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] ok (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by twi on Mon Mar 4th, 2002 at 10:32:57 AM EST

> What seems to be the case, is that the average natural man can orgasm more quickly and easily than the average
> circumcised man, if he wants to, and, likewise, the average natural man can delay orgasm more easily
> than the average circumcised man.

Ok, that might indeed be the case.

> because of what is known as foreskin restoration.

Oh, I had no idea that this was possible. Very interesting, and yes, those men should know.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: -1 Flogging a dead, um, horse (3.50 / 2) (#24)
by pyramid termite on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 08:10:07 AM EST

Take a subject that's been talked to death lately, find the most partial, subjective sources you can (find me an objective measure of sexual pleasure - I defy you!), and re, re, re, submit. Perhaps adequacy.org would like this - it's their kind of story.

[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: Evidence too anecdotal (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by Eloquence on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 08:08:25 AM EST

I share your sentiments about circumcision, but the evidence you cite is really too anecdotal in nature. It would probably be easy to get quotes from women touting the advantages of having sex with circumcised men, even if they are in a minority. The survey looks slightly more interesting, but no sample size is given, nor any information about the subjects examined.

Would you mind ordering the book in question and writing a summary of the survey?

Interesting tidbit about South Korea, BTW, I didn't know that.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy … Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: about the book "Sex As Nature Intended It&quo (none / 0) (#28)
by tiger on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 08:13:39 PM EST

You say: “the evidence you cite is really too anecdotal in nature”. That is true, but sensations and feelings are subjective. Thus the need for letting people say what their sensations and feelings are.

The survey was of 138 American women who were mailed a questionnaire and then sent it back with their answers and comments. The questions and numerical results of the survey, without the comments, were published in the British Journal of Urology (BJU International, January 1999, Volume 83, Supplement 1, pp. 79–84). This journal article is also reprinted in Appendix E of the book in question (Sex As Nature Intended It, by Kristen O'Hara), and that is how I know about this journal article, since I bought and read her book a few weeks ago.

I am not interested in writing a review of Sex As Nature Intended It and posting it as a story at Kuro5hin, since I am sure it would be a waste of my time that would be voted down just like this story is being voted down. However, here is what I wrote a few days ago (on my own website, not on Kuro5hin) about her book (this is a footnote in an item I wrote at my website; note that the whole body of my current Kuro5hin story is a copy, with slight formatting changes to remove the footnotes, and a change of “mutilated” to “circumcised” in several places in an effort to make it more acceptable here, from a larger item at my website that I wrote a few weeks ago and then revised a few days ago):


O'Hara, Kristen. Sex As Nature Intended It. Turning Point Publications, 2001. p. 22. (Kristen O'Hara is quoting one of the 138 respondents to her survey of women who have had intercourse with both natural and circumcised men.)

There are many such quotes in her book, in which women express in various ways their delight with natural intercourse and their suffering from circumcised intercourse. Besides often quoting the women who had answered her survey, and detailing and discussing the survey results, her book also has a very detailed and extensive coverage of the physical differences between natural and circumcised intercourse, and why these physical differences make circumcised intercourse a poor experience for women.

In her book, she also makes the point that the high divorce rate in America, which is more than twice the rate in Western Europe, is very probably largely a consequence of the kind of intercourse that women get with circumcised men (most American males are circumcised; most European males are natural). And she even gives the example of her own parents:


In my childhood, my mother and father often had heated arguments. She was clearly dissatisfied with him for several reasons and was always saying, “You just wait until these kids grow up, I’ll divorce you so fast it’ll make your head spin.” She eventually did divorce him. However, I was very close to my mother and I know that she really wanted to love my father, but she didn’t really like having sex with him (she talked about it quite openly to me). Now that I know what I know, I believe that with good, natural loving she could have become putty in his hands. Instead, she took out her sexual frustration and resentment in periodic arguing and bickering. It’s so sad to watch how love goes bad when it could have grown into a beautiful thing.

During one particular argument (it was long after my bedtime and I’m sure they thought I was asleep), my mother shouted, “I wish I’d never married you. I should have married John. I’d be happy now, instead of being miserable with you.” My father growled back, “Oh, sure…John this…John that…. You wouldn’t have been happy with him.” To which my mother yelled back, “Yeah, well at least when I had sex with him, it didn’t feel like he was shoving a broomstick in and out of me, like it does with you.” [Ibid., p. 64]


[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Interesting (none / 0) (#29)
by Eloquence on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 08:57:18 PM EST

Thanks for the quote, I'll be sure to add the book to my reference list on circumcision. The thesis of the higher divorce rate in the US as a result of circumcision is interesting, if a bit daring. Please don't forget that the case can be made that early, natural sexual experiences are essential for pleasureful sex in later life. In this respect, the US are much more conservative/repressed than Europe. So it's really hard to say how much circumcision has to do with it. (See my Defending the Right to Pleasure article.) But I won't say that it's unanswerable, and it is clearly worth a closer look.

Regarding the survey, I will order a copy of the survey alone. Perhaps I can also get permission from the author to put it on the web. This is very interesting, since there is a quite well-funded campaign for circumcision in adult males, supported with tales of males who reportedly have improved their sex lives (see, that's why anecdotal evidence is problematic). This would be a key study to debunk their circumcision mythology.

Well, at least the numbers are on the decline. Even in a generally conservative community like K5, the majority is clearly against circumcision.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy … Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: good article (4.00 / 1) (#30)
by tiger on Mon Mar 4th, 2002 at 04:00:57 AM EST

I read your Defending the Right to Pleasure article, and all I can say is WOW! Overall, very, very, good. The material about Prescott and his findings is all new to me, but I find it easy to see the truth of it, based on my own experience with life in America.

My own view is that the anti-sex policies in America serve the imperial needs of America, because sex is at the root of families, and families are at the root of nations, and nations want freedom and independence to live their own lives. Empires are all about enslaving other nations. America is the largest and most powerful empire in the world today (Germany, where I presume you live, is just one of the many imperial provinces that America has won by conquest; most recently, we see Afghanistan being added to the list). Thus, whatever harms nations rooted in families, serves the American empire. Male circumcision is just one of many ways that America attacks the family. Your article describes several other ways.

Reading your article reminded me of a typical-for-America horror story that I read recently, about a woman schoolteacher who was in jail awaiting trial for having consensual sex with a 17-year-old male student. If found guilty, she can spend many years in prison, depending on the final sentencing. If I recall correctly, allegedly what happened is she wanted him to get her pregnant, and he told his mother about it, and his mother reported the teacher to the police.

Regarding your statement: “Even in a generally conservative community like K5, the majority is clearly against circumcision.” I don’t think that is correct, based on how my own story and the other recent story on male circumcision, were voted down. Most Americans seem to believe whatever the media tells them to believe, and the media, as a whole, is still supportive of male circumcision, as far as I can tell (although there have been a few small cracks, such as Howard Stern’s open denunciation of the practice on at least a few of his radio shows). Regarding the American media’s support of male circumcision, see, for example, the article Treatment of Circumcision on TV.

To give you a recent example of what I am talking about, I watched the television show Survivor a few months ago, in which the game took place in Kenya, Africa. During one of the episodes, the show host, as part of the current game, gave an alleged description of how life in the local African village is. During that long slowly-spoken description, he said several times about how the boys are circumcised to become men. He must have used the circumcision word about 5 or 6 times, and his talk was implicitly supportive of the practice. When the camera panned around to the players, I noticed that they all seemed to look shit-faced at the circumcision talk. But if any of them had said anything against it, I would never know, because, as a rule, we only see on TV what the establishment wants us to see.

Talking about Survivor reminds me of another way they attacked the family: they made a big deal in several of the episodes about AIDS, and they had some of the players visiting and helping an AIDS clinic. For those who don’t know, the reason that the American government proclaimed AIDS in 1984 as being a sexually transmitted disease that carries a death sentence, is because that is just another way to attack sex. There is a large literature on the Web exposing the fiction of AIDS as a sexually transmitted disease. See, for example, the writings of Peter Duesberg (his book, Inventing the AIDS Virus, is especially good).

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Thoughts (4.00 / 1) (#32)
by Eloquence on Mon Mar 4th, 2002 at 08:57:52 PM EST

Imperialism: Well, the question is where the desire to rule others, to accumulate wealth that can never be spent, comes from. In Prescott's cross-cultural study, it was found that those cultures which are highly sensually/sexually repressed also have strong religious morality and wealth as a status symbol. It seems like the repression of pleasure and affection in early life is the neurological root cause of such behavior. It's not US-specific. The worst case of imperialism in world history were the nazis, and they were also highly sexually repressive, advocated strong physical punishment of children, worshipped symbols and status etc.

There are many untold stories of sexual repression (e.g. 17 years in prison for consensual sex). We are in the process of revamping violence.de and turning it into a K5-style site, with some extras, to tell these stories.

Circumcision: Yes, the common reaction is probably more indifference towards the practice, but I think the tide is turning, as most medical associations are no longer recommending it. I am also quite sure that, while the practice with proper anesthesia still causes unnecessary long-term harm, its effects on society are reversible. The previous story, BTW, was likely voted down because it was simply not well written (the title alone was a good reason to vote it down). Yours was better, but people here cannot talk about sexual matters more than once a week without feeling dirty. ;-)

Duesberg: Careful there. It seems to me like Duesberg is in itself a disinformation campaign, possibly an attempt at "social darwinism" to weed out those at the fringes of society likely to believe in it. South Africa may be a sad testament to this fact, with around 5 million HIV-infected people -- and a president who still holds on to the belief that the common conceptions of AIDS are false and, for this reason, blocks access to well-tested treatment methods. In other words, he believes Duesberg, and his people have to pay the price. Also consider this: If Duesberg was right, do you really think he would still be alive, especially after convincing an African president?

Whether AIDS is man-made is debatable. But please make sure to take the proper precautions during sex, if only to protect yourself against other STDs.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy … Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Comments (none / 0) (#33)
by tiger on Tue Mar 5th, 2002 at 03:40:20 AM EST

Imperialism: You are apparently saying that the repression of pleasure and affection in early life is the root cause of imperialism. I can understand this view, and agree with it at least partially, in the sense that someone who has suffered repression of pleasure and affection in early life is more likely to think in imperialist terms, and more likely to be willing to harm others. I agree that imperialism is not US-specific. In the world today there are many empires, both large and small, including religious empires (Islam is the most imperialist religion I know of). But America is the current giant, and the other empires have to sing its tune, or face the consequences.

The 17-years-in-prison-for-consensual-sex story is pretty awful.

Circumcision: I agree the tide is turning, but it still has a long way to go. I saw the comments for that other male-circumcision story, but I never saw the story, since there was always some message saying something to the effect that the system couldn’t find it. If that guy wants to rework and resubmit his story, then he is welcome to try. However, for myself, I feel like I have already gotten what I wanted from the experience, and have already spent enough time on it, so I am not going to resubmit.

Duesberg: I don’t like to argue, and I see you prefer to believe that AIDS is what the establishment claims it is. You ask: “If Duesberg was right, do you really think he would still be alive, especially after convincing an African president?” My answer is that being right about some anti-establishment position is, as a rule, not a death sentence in America. And why do you think it is such a big deal that Duesberg has helped influence the South African president. Just who do you think would be ordering his murder, anyway? Are you saying that if Duesberg is wrong about AIDS and influences the South African president, then he is safe; but if Duesberg is right about AIDS and influences the South African president, then he will be killed? In effect, this is what you are saying, when you ask the question you did.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: resubmit after the morons finish -1 you (3.33 / 3) (#18)
by turmeric on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 05:36:24 AM EST
(donb--at--freeshell.org) http://aeoe.freeshell.org

these people are fools, look at the "reasons" given for the -1 scores, they are quite ,... uhm... well, they dont give any reasons. just keep resubmitting it under different title/section/whatever (op ed perhaps) until the morons stop -1 you.

[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: Resubmit (3.00 / 1) (#17)
by scanman on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 05:32:18 AM EST

Resection to Op-Ed, remove the "AND"s. Good article, but some people are anal about such things.


"[You are] a narrow-minded moron [and] a complete loser." - David Quartz
"[You are] oversensitive." - la princessa
"[You are] not qualified to date me." - webwench

[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: Too Many Circumcision Stories. Repetitive. -1 (nt) (3.00 / 2) (#16)
by DarkZero on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 05:28:54 AM EST

nt

[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: -1 Too Penis-Centric (3.25 / 4) (#11)
by m0rzo on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:14:50 AM EST
(webmaster_at_insideroam_dot_com)

=)


My last sig was just plain offensive.
[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: Why are people voting this down? (3.25 / 4) (#10)
by valency on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:12:52 AM EST
(a d a m at m/e/g/a/c/z dot c o m)

?

---
If you disagree, and somebody has already posted the exact rebuttal that you would use: moderate, don't post.
[ Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Proof by Anecdote (3.00 / 2) (#19)
by Bad Harmony on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 06:13:54 AM EST

The article would have to be improved by an order of magnitude to rise to the level of "junk science".


Shut the fsck up, bitch!
--Professor Jay Wade, Department of Psychology, Fordham University
expert on "listening skills"
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Would I be right in assuming... (3.00 / 2) (#21)
by dipipanone on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 07:16:39 AM EST
http://www.drugarm.org.au/gallery/ana14a.jpg

..that you don't have one then?

I must say, the level of animosity against this article really is quite an opener. The article seemed to me to be fairly informative -- reporting the experiences of women who have known both, and of men who have lost their foreskins as adults -- and didn't seem to be making any particular scientific claims, which is why it's located in culture, rather than op-ed, this being a practice specific to certain cultures.

I'd never imagined that there could be such a thing as foreskin envy, but the responses to this piece really do make me wonder.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: See my comment below (none / 0) (#13)
by Vs on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:21:01 AM EST
http://www.foldr.org/stolz/

Maybe that's the reason.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: The silly thing about circumcision debates (2.75 / 4) (#8)
by Hopfrog on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:01:41 AM EST

The people who are circumcized will argue loud about how being cut is the best way. The people who are uncircumcized will argue as loud about the advantages of being uncut.
Fact is, both sides are telling the other how to live their lives.
Just let it be.

Hop.

[ Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: But the main difference remains (4.50 / 2) (#9)
by Vs on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:09:45 AM EST
http://www.foldr.org/stolz/

But you cannot just skip the fact that only one of the two groups knows both sides. And in that case I'd rather appreciate the view of the "Both-siders".

I concede to that the article is lacking references to men who where circumcised late and appreciate the effects.

If there are no such references or the author just didn't bother to dig them out, I cannot judge, but he should definitely point this out -- unless he explicetly decided to write a biased article.

So that's -1, but not just because I don't want to see an article on this topic but because I think this needs to be worked out.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: eeeeeeeeeeeeeew (1.33 / 3) (#6)
by delmoi on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 03:46:45 AM EST
(delmoi(+)hatori42.com) http://hatori42.com

damn, thats nasty.

lit.hatori42.com liturature on the 'net.
[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: What? (2.80 / 5) (#5)
by Zeram on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 03:28:20 AM EST
(zeramATcomcastDOTnet)

We didn't get enough of this already?
<----^---->
"Personally, when I go to the Laundromat I wash my clothes with a live puppy and a quart of banana yogurt, which might explain why I haven't been reeling in the hotties lately." --Mr. Cranky
[ Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Plenty (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by rusty on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 08:10:32 AM EST
(rusty@kuro5hin.org) http://www.kuro5hin.org/

More than plenty, I'd say. This is like when the ass surgery article went on the front page and we had to endure the wave of "me too" disgusting surgery articles. Just keep voting -1...

--
"SELECT * FROM People WHERE People.AttractedTo = 'me' ORDER BY
People.HooterDimensions DESC" does not return any rows.   --garbanzo

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: -1, pointless (3.25 / 4) (#4)
by lordsutch on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 03:15:48 AM EST
(lawrencc@debian.org) http://www.lordsutch.com/

This really should be a comment in one of the pube-obsessed articles, or a diary, or something. Another circumcision story is the last thing this place needs...


Linux CDs. Schuyler Fisk can sell me long distance anytime.
[ Reply to This | ]
[new] Editorial: Au contraire (4.33 / 3) (#14)
by kaemaril on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:39:04 AM EST
(k5@kaemaril.co.uk)

Surely the last thing this place needs is people decreeing what the last thing this place needs is? :)

(And yes, I'm aware of the irony)


> SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0 ;
0 rows returned

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: -1 Op-Ed (4.33 / 3) (#3)
by 90X Double Side on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 03:11:34 AM EST

This should definitely be in op-ed, although even there I would like to see a little balance, or at least an explanation of the issue (not that this doesn't have some research, it just feels like a post in reply to some story which would have explained the issue in more detail; too little of the story followed by a lot of quotes).

On a stylistic note, don't put AND in all caps, and never put anything in all caps unless you have control over your font, kerning, etc. It might look cleaner to simply drop the "AND"s and just put quotation marks around each paragraph. Overall, just feels unfinished, too much space wasted on quotes and too little content, thus not very good for fostering discussion. Flesh out the story and use external links, perhaps with one or two quotes in the body.

“Who killed Walt Disney?”
—Space Ghost
[ Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Thank you (3.25 / 8) (#2)
by jonathan_ingram on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 03:10:52 AM EST
(spam_buster_2000@yahoo.com)

You'll find that this article will get voted down almost instantly - perhaps posting it when most Americans are asleep will make it score higher. This was a very interesting set of comments and statistics about male circumcision. I'll save a copy of it to send to friends who still maintain that male circumcision has no downsides (although, being in the UK, I have very few circumcised friends who are not Jewish).

One of the problems of resisting circumcision is that it is a Jewish tribal custom. By opposing circumcision, some people feel that you are opposing Judaism. While they have a right to be a little over-sensitive, given the historic prejudices against them, I hope over time they could be convinced that they can still be good, religious people, without needing to mutilate their children.
-- Jon
[ Reply to This | ]
[new] Zero rating? (3.80 / 5) (#22)
by jonathan_ingram on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 07:29:39 AM EST
(spam_buster_2000@yahoo.com)

I'd be interested to know the motivations of the person that rated this '0'. That rating is intended to be restricted to contentless or malicious posts. The parent is neither.
-- Jon
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] -1 [formal reasons | other] (2.50 / 2) (#12)
by Vs on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 04:19:09 AM EST
http://www.foldr.org/stolz/

You'll find that this article will get voted down almost instantly - perhaps posting it when most Americans are asleep will make it score higher.
Sometimes I wish that there'd be a way of distinguishing between a -1 for being technically bad or -1 for utter crap.

This one definetly falls into the first category, the author could do much better with a bit more work.

That way, the author would have even better feedback on why his article was rejected. I understand that that's what editorial comments are for, but often I vote -1 and don't write an editorial comment because all my points have already been made by somebody else.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Oh. (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by jesterzog on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 05:25:37 AM EST
(k5zog*nospam;jester;net;nz)



often I vote -1 and don't write an editorial comment because all my points have already been made by somebody else.


Well often I vote -1 and don't bother writing an editorial comment because I noticed that negative editorial comments so often get rated down by some people which to me indicates that they would prefer not to know why I voted how I did.


jesterzog
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
[new] Re: Oh. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by Vs on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 06:35:11 AM EST
http://www.foldr.org/stolz/

Sometimes I think the editorial comments are rather ... hm ... unreflected, which some people might indicate by voting those comments down. A -1 on a critical editorial doesn't necessarily mean +1 on the article.

Anyway, point taken :-)

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] It appears that you're correct... (4.00 / 4) (#7)
by dipipanone on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 03:48:19 AM EST
http://www.drugarm.org.au/gallery/ana14a.jpg

While the piece is indeed somewhat one-sided, I don't actually mind that. Here in the UK, we don't have such an expectation of 'balance' in our journalism -- I think that we tend to assume that readers are sufficiently literate as to be able to figure out that the author has a position, and we therefore read it under that understanding.

I much prefer this tendency, as it is at least more honest than the style employed by the American media, who only really insist on balance where the issue is one that actually goes against the consensus. For example, I see no requirement for 'balance' in the American media when reporting US foreign policy, or government claims about the effectiveness of their drug policy. So please, lets put the balance/objectivity myth to bed, shall we?

What has really surprised me though, is the huge amount of negative responses that the post has generated. I'm a newbie here, which is possibly why the moderation guidelines are still so clear in my mind. However, it was my impression that the 'dump it' vote was for articles that clearly are junk, of no interest to anybody and a complete waste of time. Whether you agree with the sentiments expressed in the article or not, this article hardly falls into that category that I can see, and a search on the topic of 'circumcision' didn't turn up anything on this subject.

Could it really be the case that what we're seeing here is men who are voting the story down because they can't bear to be confronted with the possibility that they've been subjected to involuntary mutilation that has robbed them of their full degree of sexual pleasure? (This isn't a position that I necessarily hold personally, but it's the case that the article seems to be making.)

I have to say that if I were lacking a foreskin, I'd definitely want to hear the arguments against it so as I didn't make the same decisions with my own children, but as it is, the k5 readers seem to be responding with all of the insight and enlightenment of a group of tribal village elders when told that female genital mutilation is wrong. What ever happened to the idea of posting rather than modding down if you disagreed? I feel like I'm right back at that other site.

Given all this, then it seems to me that the need for such an article is even more pressing, and now I regret having only awarded it +1 section rather than FP.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
 
[new] Editorial: AND (3.00 / 2) (#1)
by juahonen on Sun Mar 3rd, 2002 at 02:49:30 AM EST

Replace with:

Paul Tardiff, circumcised at 30, NOCIRC Circumcision Video, by Marilyn Milos, RN, and Sheila Curran, RN:
quoted text in blockquote


[ Reply to This | ]
 
Male circumcision in America damages sexual relations | 34 comments (10 topical, 24 editorial, 0 pending) | Post A Comment | Edit Story
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