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Rejected (Op-Ed)

By qpt
Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:38:42 AM EST

Banned from #kuro5hin and an untrusted user here at kuro5hin.org, I have had time to think about online community, and more importantly, individuals in an online community who don't quite fit in.

I freely admit that I do not know most of you, but from reading your diaries, stories, and posts, I feel that I have come to at least a rough idea of the sort of difficulties and challenges many of you have faced through life. From what I have gathered, rejection is not an unfamiliar experience to many of you.

I am not going to bore you with self-righteous cries of censorship, or demand to be restored to my place in the community, but I would ask you to briefly reflect on a few things. While many of you have in the past condemned the discriminatory and exclusionary social structures in high-school and elsewhere, it is obvious that Kuro5hin has proven itself to be no different.

While you can endlessly debate the merits of exclusive communities and get nowhere, the fact remains that if exclusion is a sin, then Kuro5hin is guilty. I said what was on my mind and tried to be honest about my thoughts, and ultimately, I was rejected for it. I do not deny that every other member of this community has the freedom to associate with whoever they choose, but I do ask that you put aside the hypocrisy of viewing yourselves as an oppressed minority. You have been rejected, and you have rejected.

What bothers me the most, I suppose, is the half-hearted attempts at justification. I was not trolling; my opinions merely differed from yours. My love for Jin_Wicked was real, not some sort of act. If you wish to reject me for that, such is your prerogative, but you must be able to deal with the fact that you rejected honest opinions and emotion.

Kuro5hin has been on both ends of the stick. You are no better and no worse than anyone else.

< Was Bill Gates a good programmer? (27 comments) | Truth, Trolls, and Big Lies (137 comments) >

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Current score:-25
Total votes: 318
The following lists show who voted which way on this story. Select a name and click the "User Info" button next to the list for more information about a particular user. "(FP)" denotes a vote for the Front Page.

Rejected | 79 comments (60 topical, 19 editorial, 1 pending) | Post A Comment | Edit Story

[new] Who watches the watchmen? (none / 0) (#75)
by jd on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:51:24 AM EST

This is an age-old problem. If you have a society that mandates the absence of restrictions, how is that mandate enforced?

The reality is that ANY society is going to come to some balance, between being UNrestrictive enough that the society is tennable, and yet restrictive enough to ensure that the "unrestrictions" actually exist.

Kuro5hin is, IMHO, one of the best balancing acts I've ever seen. It's not flawless - nothing built by humans will ever acheive such a lofty status. Nor is it "ideal", simply because no two people have the same notion of what "ideal" is. However, given the sheer problem that humans pose, and the sheer range of conditions any environment has to handle, I have to applaud Kuro5hin as an amazing achievement.

Finally, I'm going to recommend you study social disorders, specifically the "Higher Functioning Autism / Asperger Syndrome" spectrum. No, this does not mean I'm suggesting a happy pill will take all your problems away. Besides, no "cure" exists for HFA/AS. Nor will such a "cure" ever be found. It's not that kind of a problem.

On the other hand, your attitude in your post is almost classic HFA/AS (either that, or the even more horribly-misunderstood "Borderline Personality Disorder"). HFA/AS is untreatable. BPA is, but 99.999% of the psych profession won't touch it with a 10 mile barge-pole, for double-pay =and= extra cheese sandwiches.

[ Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: Regarding QPT (4.33 / 3) (#71)
by Jin Wicked on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:11:22 AM EST
(k5@jinwicked.com) http://www.jinwicked.com/

For the record:

For all the "love" qpt has professed, he has been extremely rude and obnoxious to me each and every time I encountered him on IRC, to the point that Inoshiro had to make sure I was alright, and I have virtually quit using IRC altogether. I was not aware that qpt was actually banned. I suppose it is OK for me to go back now. (Assuming I actually had time for that.)

For all the diary entries he has posted, he has sent me only one private communication, a lame attempt to apologize for his first round of humiliation towards me, in hopes I'd come back on IRC so (obviously) he could do it some more. His posts (regarding me) are nothing more than some sort of ploy for attention, not from me, but from everyone else. He virtually ignores me every time I have encountered him -- I just happen to be the target he picked for his little joke, and so I am the one that has had to deal with it.

I am not sure why he has decided to try and make me miserable, but it has been happening since the very first time I signed on IRC, where several people told me that he "talks about you alot." This entire time I have just dismissed the whole thing as bored people trying to mess with my head. It isn't the first time something like this has happened, but it is certainly the first time someone has persisted for so long.

I had to complain to both Inoshiro and Rusty about his diary entries. While I don't feel threatened by him, I do find his posts to be extremely embarassing and have in the past been worried that someone would think I put him up to it or something. I do not like being associated with this fellow in any way. Were I a mega-star like Britney Spears, people would just ignore him. Unfortunately I'm not, so I have some weird person pretending to be obsessed with me, which most people cannot discern if he is serious or not.

I never asked for him to be banned; I did ask for him to be warned that I did not find his comments amusing, and that I would appreciate it if he would stop. (I tried to ignore it, but I started getting e-mail from people about it.) If he has been rejected by anyone, it is just part of this big, poorly planned stunt he has been pulling for quite some time now. I'd appreciate a quick and silent end to this whole ordeal. He doesn't deserve any more than rejection, because that is all he has sought.

"Ars longa, vita brevis...Art is long, life is short."
[ Reply to This | ]

[new] More details please (none / 0) (#63)
by khallow on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:48:32 AM EST
(khallow@hotmail.com)

One valid reason for exclusion is if the excluded party obstructed the functions of the community. I.e., if a person actively prevents a community from performing it's normal activities, then there is cause for exclusion. Some cases where I think this probably would be valid: the party in question has spammed repeatedly a mailing list or chat room, repeatedly harasses or annoys another party, or performs DoS attacks or other nasty things (recall last years K5 troubles!).

Also, I really don't understand what happened before and during your expulsion from #kuro5hin. A third person account here would be most enlightening.

[ Reply to This | ]

[new] Is this qtp person real? (3.00 / 1) (#60)
by Yanna on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:36:09 AM EST
(yanna at myrealbox dot com)

Is this person and his diaries for real? Somehow, the whole thing looks like a parody of Internet infatuation.

[ Reply to This | ]

[new] relevance? (4.00 / 1) (#66)
by ODiV on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:53:41 AM EST
((my nick)@hushmail.com) http://odiv.net

I don't think it really matters, quite frankly. It would take too much time to determine whether someone is pretending or not. Even if we think it's immediately obvious that so-and-so is a fake, the Internet is a diverse place, and assumptions are slippery.

I usually just take everything at face value, naive as it may seem. If it turns out I've been talking with someone who is misrepresenting his or her viewpoints, then I haven't really lost anything. If I didn't enjoy a discussion, I wouldn't participate in it.

--
Proud k5 subscriber since Nov. 2001.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Hey, I know! (4.66 / 3) (#56)
by ODiV on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:20:16 AM EST
((my nick)@hushmail.com) http://odiv.net

You stop posting noise and I'll moderate you above 0. So will many others I suspect. I'm worried about the signal to noise ratio on k5. I'm sure many others are too. So knock off the bullshit and everything will work itself out.

(I'm not even talking about Jin Wicked. I'm merely looking at qtp's comments for the past little while.)

--
Proud k5 subscriber since Nov. 2001.
[ Reply to This | ]

[new] One small problem (none / 0) (#68)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:58:44 AM EST
(codemonkey_uk(at)hotmail(dot)com) http://thad.notagoth.org/

Unless I am mistaken, an untrussted user can't post unless the become trusted, and presumably they can't become trusted without beeing able to post...

I'm not sure though so I'd be happy to be corrected on this...

Thad
Listen: Music!
Test your guru skills: C++ FIGHT!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] They can post (4.00 / 1) (#70)
by Phaser777 on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:10:20 AM EST
(moc.cam@resahp)

but only trusted users can see them. All their posts start out below 1.

---
My business plan:
Obtain the patents for something (the more obvious and general the better)
Wait until someone else adopts the idea and becomes rich off it.
Sue them.
Repeat.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: -1 (4.00 / 1) (#55)
by Scrag on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:16:32 AM EST
(Scrag@shaw-pc.com)

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not going to vote this up just so you won't feel "rejected". Don't troll, and maybe people won't reject you.

--Rot13 twice to decrypt this message--
[ Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: Fascinating (4.00 / 2) (#51)
by caine on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 09:52:06 AM EST
(caine at ebox dot tninet dot se) http://konflux.net

I found this rather fascinating, but after reading his diaries I feel quite certain that he is a troll, and if he is not, he is too stupid and asocial to take note about. It is albeit interesting to read other people's reaction to the whole thing, and women in general. Not quite what I expected, but I guess we still have some thousands years of evolution ahead of us before we get it just right.

-- The UN Flag still flies!
[ Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: Who cares who he is? (4.50 / 2) (#52)
by Crashnbur on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:07:39 AM EST
(crashnbur@hotmail.com?subject=Kuro5hin)

You found the article fascinating, and the article itself deserves to be modded up, correct? Why must you insist on setting a person to standards? This is precisely why politics is so screwed up...

People let good ideas die because the wrong man pushes it forward.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: Standards (none / 0) (#54)
by caine on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:15:58 AM EST
(caine at ebox dot tninet dot se) http://konflux.net

You mean like "I don't like to be lied to", "You shouldn't hurt other people, verbally or physically", standards like that?

I find nazi-germany fascinating too, that does not mean I would promote the people behind it, or their ideas. Specifically what I found interesting now was not the article, but people's reactions and views on women.

-- The UN Flag still flies!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: Godwin (5.00 / 1) (#61)
by caine on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:40:27 AM EST
(caine at ebox dot tninet dot se) http://konflux.net

Bah..I just realized I fullfilled Godwin's Law. So sue me :)

-- The UN Flag still flies!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: so... (none / 0) (#74)
by ODiV on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:33:05 AM EST
((my nick)@hushmail.com) http://odiv.net

so that means you had the last post and you win, right? :)

I don't know how you could not have thought of Godwin's law when posting that. I try not use Nazis as an example of anything unless it's absolutely necessary. It gets referenced way too much and tends to tune people out to what you're actually saying.

--
Proud k5 subscriber since Nov. 2001.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

K5 (4.60 / 5) (#49)
by meadows_p on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 09:22:40 AM EST
http://www.mp3.com/djphilsavage

I'm sure that I'm not alone in remembering when K5 was actually about technology and culture. WTF is this all about? Some horrible little cliquey verbal masturbation thing. Time to move elsewhere, nothing to see here.

[ Reply to This | ]

[new] Time for K5 to Expand (none / 0) (#53)
by Crashnbur on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:11:08 AM EST
(crashnbur@hotmail.com?subject=Kuro5hin)

I remember that time too. And it was great. Then K5 grew. I remember that I was user #582 back in the day. Now I'm guessing that we have upwards of a few thousand, or more? I don't have any idea, and I don't care to look or ask around to find out. But the site has grown, and perhaps the site should expand ... just a little ... to accomodate its masses.

Maybe.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Editorial: k5 discriminates (4.50 / 4) (#48)
by leviathan on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 09:20:25 AM EST
(levi8556@hotmail.com)

k5 is discriminatory. K5 excludes people. This is good. That's why I come here.

High school has (by law) to be inclusive. Therefore discrimination is bad there. You're just trolling again.

You're right for once though, -1 and this article do make a lovely pairing.

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert
[ Reply to This | ]

Editorial: I Like It. (5.00 / 4) (#47)
by Electric Angst on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 09:04:55 AM EST
(kuro5hin@electric-angst.net) http://www.electric-angst.net

This really should be added to the K5 Troll HOWTO: Use the communities' paranoia about exclusivity against it. Kind of like writing a shitty article that talks about censorship online, too many people are afraid to vote it down for fear that they might be seen as censoring.

Fortunantly, the lack of self-awareness and herd mentality that make this work are generally overcome by every voter's primary judgement-maker, weather they like the article of not. They don't like this one, and while you've made it a slow-go to the bottom, it will be flushed.
--
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." - Nietzsche
The UN Flag still flies!
[ Reply to This | ]

Editorial: "-1, always -1" (4.20 / 5) (#45)
by Phaser777 on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:53:38 AM EST
(moc.cam@resahp)

Your untrusted status just might have something to do with your long string of pointless -1s. They were just noise, and were moderated as noise.

---
My business plan:
Obtain the patents for something (the more obvious and general the better)
Wait until someone else adopts the idea and becomes rich off it.
Sue them.
Repeat.
[ Reply to This | ]

Rejected? Rejected. -1. (4.60 / 5) (#44)
by pwhysall on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:48:54 AM EST
(pwhysall@hotmail.com) http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/board/show?boardid=1

Self-pitying nonsense.

You brought this whole thing on yourself.

--
Peter

There is no K5 Cabal.
[ Reply to This | ]

Editorial: go kill yourself (0.20 / 30) (#43)
by dnuoforp on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:43:13 AM EST

yeah

[ Reply to This | ]

Love... (4.50 / 4) (#42)
by slaytanic killer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:34:11 AM EST

In your last diary, you wrote:

I have heard that it is possible to find people's personal information online. Is this true? If so, how do I go about finding it? In particular, I would like this person's phone number and address, but any other information would be great also. Thanks!

That was a long while ago, and still I remember. Did you know how close I was to zeroing out C4L's reply? But obviously you could find that information anywhere...

Dude, you are not an animal. I can only assume you are a troll, since that is not love, dragging some person's name around even after she tells you to stop.

I had a friend once who called me once from a mental hospital, since he "loved" a girl enough to tell her that he'd murder her family and hang her cat on the porch. Jr. high was indeed a turbulent time... So I can't tell if this is a troll. Maybe is. But if not, please review what love is, and find someone you consider intelligent to talk about it with.

[ Reply to This | ]

Rejected... (4.83 / 6) (#41)
by Mabb on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:27:02 AM EST
(felicity@nojunk.netguru.com.au) http://www.netguru.com.au/~felicity

Well I have no idea what the Jin Wicked thing is all about, but I rejected you based purely on your stoopid -1 comments that were highly annoying, disruptive and repetitive despite clear indications that they were not acceptable. I rated them all at 0 after the first 2 or 3. So did a lot of other people it seems. That's how you get to be untrusted here.

If you want to belong to a community, then don't be a jerk. And if you do something jerkish and people tell you you're being a jerk, consider their opinion and examine your behaviour. If 10 people think you are a jerk, then you might well be one. If 100 people think you are a jerk then you can pretty much guarantee it.

Life's tough and I don't think anyone has claimed that K5 is all peace, love and mung beans. It's more like a very focussed community that knows what it likes - and what it doesn't like.

I guess this community doesn't like jerks.

Cadw'r Ddysgl yn Wastad -- keep the dish level
[ Reply to This | ]

I modded this up, but I wish I hadn't (2.00 / 3) (#35)
by 2400n81 on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:51:26 AM EST
http://www.nutsackdance.com/

I am tired of loser motherfuckers like you screwing around with the chicks in our community. It's like once some female gets enough courage to speak her mind, a bunch of fucking tosser geeks worship her and then disrespect her when she gives them the finger.

[ Reply to This | ]

Such is the way (2.33 / 3) (#33)
by alleria on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:45:01 AM EST

of all weblogs. Once herd conformity sets in, there is nothing but the smell of death. The participants may try to deny it, but it exists.

Time to move on to greener pastures

[ Reply to This | ]

Editorial: Personally, I couldn't care less (4.33 / 3) (#31)
by Tim C on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:36:26 AM EST
(kuro@gothgeek.org)

Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

qpt feels excluded here, and moans that people are practicing exactly what they sometimes moan about?

Big deal. That's the way the world works. It isn't nice, it isn't good, but it is the way it is. Whining won't change it; making a conscious effort not to do it yourself, and explaining to others in a rational, non-emotional way, might.

That said, it still gets a +1 from me, as it's obviously generating plenty of discussion, and this is a discussion site :-)

Cheers,

Tim

[ Reply to This | ]

+1 Section. This is a mirror (3.00 / 3) (#25)
by Afty on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:03:50 AM EST

On k5 we seem to spend all of our time examining external issues, usually ones with significant global importance, yet this kind of issue is arguably more important (for the people involved) because it is closer to home.

I'm not remotely interested in the specifics of who said what to whom, but from a little investigation and reading comments here and elsewhere it is possible to ascertian:

1] Jin has a site which concentrates on herself alot, including the well noted boyfriend test.

2] qtp has obssessed about her for some time

3] qtps behaviour has gone downhill recently culminating in flames, and I assume other behaviour not wanted by Jin on IRC.

Now, it's interesting to see that no-one has been physically hurt in this matter, as far as I can tell.
People have had a go at qtp because he publicly proclaimed his (strong) feelings.
qtp has been banned from k5 - for what I don't know - but he hasn't actually physically hurt anyone to the best of my knowledge.

Now, on IRC is a little command "/ignore" (at least on my client) that allows me to permanently ignore someone. Why on earth was this not used in the k5 IRC channel? As for the website, I can ignore qtp by not reading comments or stories posted by him if I would like to do so.

The exclusion from this community reeks to me of double standards. It's the classic behaviour I see from geeks reallying around to protect one of the few females willing to associate with them, usually in order to gain better social stature within a social group to further their agenda with females.

Example:
At college, a girl I was sleeping with (non-serious relationship but we had agreed to be exclusive) cheated on me with her boss at work - I found out pretty quickly and ended the relationship suddenly, when questioned about it I said nothing about the reasons just that I no wish to associate with her again and I was not happy about her morality.
Over the period of a few weeks, some of the previously rational and reasonable males in the group started to accuse me of being cruel to her (I started dating another girl a week later, completely unrelated), they would be particularly vocal or persistent when some of the geek girls were present.
Finally, after being accused of 'treating her like shit' I told a group of people in the argument what she had done - most didn't believe me and accused me of being a liar too. Luckily, some of them asked her a little later, and not only did she admit to it, but she made out it was no big deal, and that I should have put up with it.

End result, alot of apologising to me by people who had previously been my friends.

My point is not that she had done wrong (everyone does) - or that Jin has done wrong here (a guy with a site like that wouldn't be considered 'attention grabbing') - but it is that in a community with only a few females men tend to side with the females for one reason or another (social conditioning is one aspect) and this definitely seems to be happening here.

No-one seems to have asked the obvious question yet:
If Jin was Jon and he had a site with a girlfriend test, webcam to his work desk, and a girl called qpy proclaimed her love for him on her diary, and acted a bit out of line in IRC and generally made a nuisance of herself, finally flaming the guy, would this girl qpy be banned from the k5 community (in one or more ways?).
I sincerely doubt it.

I would love to say that the open-minded, generally intelligent k5 community would be the last place I expected such behaviour to take place, I can't because it is one of the places I consider most likely to harbour such behaviour.

'Geeks', 'Nerds', 'Hackers' (of which I consider myself in both of the latter 2) and such are usually socially maladjusted, yet they also generally have a good level of intellect and intelligence. Whether the first(social maladjustment) is causative, or a result I don't know.

Your average dweller solely of Meatspace, who was socially adjusted much better than your average nerd would have dealt with this kind of social incident in a far more efficient manner. The fact that no-one in k5 seems to have been able to do so says a great deal about the community here, not just about qtp.
----------- Afty / Russ
[ Reply to This | ]

Double standards work both ways. (4.00 / 4) (#30)
by Kiss the Blade on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:31:13 AM EST
(Kiss_The_Blade@disinfo.netNOSPAM)

You make some interesting points, not least that qpt would have been treated differently were he female.

However, I disagree that females are treated better on this community than males, especially talented artistic females like Jin - they are perceived as a threat.

If you investigate Jin's posts and articles, you will see that she is routinely harassed and mistreated. Why? Because this weblog is predominantly composed of misogynist males, such as OriginalGTT, as Delmoi rightly pointed out some time ago. When a female appears she does get a form of preferential treatment - the sort of treatment men consider preferential anyway. Whether this is preferential from the female's point of view is another thing entirely - I am sure most females here just want to be treated like anyone else, equally. Instead they generate real emotion, be it lust, love, hate, jealousy, and, most of all, fear.

Of course not only is Jin female, but she is a wonderfully gifted artist too. This places her at the diametric opposite of the geeks in terms of talent and insight. The geeks think she is self absorbed - but I would say she has insight, an important quality for any artist. The skillset is different, but the judgemental people round here insist on judging her by the standards of the stifled computer nerd.

Of course, the wise advice is 'judge not lest ye be judged', and so when Jin posts an excellent article on Programming and why it is not Art, she is roundly attacked and flamed with such vociferousness.

Why do we insist on driving out people who are different? Anyone who is different around here has to face judgement and attack. And if that person tries to fight back, he or she is routinely squashed.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no contradiction.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Yes, hmm and yes. (5.00 / 2) (#32)
by Afty on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:39:31 AM EST

I see what you mean about Jin being perceived as a threat, as for being harrassed, that's interesting - perhaps one thing I failed to consider in my post was that the relative anonymity of online discussion means that those with possibly hostile feelings towards females in general (and I would contest there are many) may make those feelings known more often than IRL. Especially if the female is perceived as a threat, as you label Jin as a talented artist which would fall into this category.
----------- Afty / Russ
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Thanks, KTB (none / 0) (#73)
by Jin Wicked on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:32:16 AM EST
(k5@jinwicked.com) http://www.jinwicked.com/

If women get preferential treatment here, I certainly haven't experienced it. Judging from the amount of people that always seem to be waiting for me to post so they can go after it, I'd say I've experienced the exact opposite. There's a fellow on Slashdot who cut and pastes the exact same idiotic Natalie-Portman post as a reply to almost anything I say.

I think KTB hit it pretty dead-on, but one other thing that I'd like to mention is that while most online comments are "anonymous" and I suppose that does empower people in a way, to say things they otherwise might not... I also feel like I am threatening to others, because I am not anonymous in the slightest. My personal site is huge, honestly because I have just added things as people have requested them or sent questions, but I have no problem with owning up to any comment I have said, in the real world or online. I don't make comments I am ashamed of or shy about, and that sort of confidence I can imagine would be intimidating to less assertive people.

Of course, online the people who would be bothered by this can attack me anonymously. I'm an easy target because there is so much information about me readily available. I always try to look at it the same way I see things in real life...most of the idiots I get hitting on me online would shit their pants before they walked within ten feet of me in person. People just don't talk to me. I really do scare them. (For whatever reason.) I've been discussing this very thing with some of the other girls I work with, because they get hit on at work all the time, but I never have. People will talk to me if I'm with someone, and already talking, but as for approaching me out of the blue -- never.

I love my website, and the people that e-mail me to tell me how much they enjoy it, and I just have to accept that with attention like that, you have to take the good as well as the bad. Of course, when I'm feeling vindictive, I can always vent it out on some random moron.

"Ars longa, vita brevis...Art is long, life is short."
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

streetlawyer summary service (3.50 / 4) (#27)
by streetlawyer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:09:51 AM EST
(johnsaulmontoya@butwithoutthespam.yahoo.com)

the above is a hell of a long post, and quite boring too, so here's a summary of it:

Women have it so easy. This bitch dumped me once, and it, like, sucked. There's nothing wrong with stalking people if they have a website, cos they can ignore it if they want to. If it was a guy nobody would complain because nobody sticks up for guys like they do for chicks and it's like, totally unfair. Did I tell you that this bitch dumped me and it wasn't my fault?

--John Montoya, the original streetlawyer; accept no cheap imitations
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Some you hit, some you miss (2.00 / 1) (#29)
by Afty on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:29:13 AM EST

Women have it so easy.

Not really. Taking *everything* in life into account, I feel men generally have a far easier ride.

This bitch dumped me once, and it, like, sucked.

Like I said, I got rid of her (she felt we should continue the relationship, and that the odd transgression was to be accepted) for reasons of sexual health and self respect. Yes, it sucked, but it's not like there wasn't a shortage of decent replacements in college. (I'm from the UK so our concept of college is a little different to the US concept, but it's extremely easy to get a date while there, especially if, like mine, it was a mixed age college). My point about the girl was to illustrate that I have seen this kind of behaviour before (and on many more occasions than the one I posted) both online and offline.

There's nothing wrong with stalking people if they have a website, cos they can ignore it if they want to.

I'm sorry, I didn't even understand your point there. The difference between writing about someone and trying to talk to them on IRC when compared with physically visiting them and harrassing them on numerous occasions is vast. I have known a girl who was stalked for months, and finally raped in a public park in the evening by her stalker, please do not equate online chat/messages with stalking, it's insulting to the experience she suffered through.

If it was a guy nobody would complain because nobody sticks up for guys like they do for chicks and it's like, totally unfair.

I didn't say anything about 'fair' in my post. I don't actually believe in the concept of 'fairness' - I've yet to see a fair situation in my 22 years alive. If it was a guy *some* people might complain and/or stick up for him, but if it was a guy we would never see such a huge and conformative approach to the social exclusion of an individual based on their unwanted (but as far as I can tell not *wrong*) behaviour.

Did I tell you that this bitch dumped me and it wasn't my fault?

We've covered this.

I can appreciate that you feel the post is boring and long, but I contend that your 'Streetlawer Summary Service' is a load of poop, and that you completely missed the point.

Some of us are more articulate and eloquent than others, I apologise if my lack of either somehow offended you.
----------- Afty / Russ
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

OT: college different? (none / 0) (#36)
by _cbj on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:57:07 AM EST

"(I'm from the UK so our concept of college is a little different to the US concept, but it's extremely easy to get a date while there, especially if, like mine, it was a mixed age college). "

Is it different in UK?

--
If female standards had been used, I would have made it. -- weirdling
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Depends what he means (none / 0) (#38)
by spiralx on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:07:13 AM EST
(spiralx@NOSPAM.munting.co.uk) http://spiralx.dyndns.org/

Over here, college is what you go to for two years after you finish your GCSEs and before you go to university, so it's basically 16-18 year olds. Dunno if that's what he meant though.

"LOOSE STOOLS SINK SHIPS!" - wholesomegrits
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Ah... (none / 0) (#77)
by _cbj on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 01:22:21 PM EST

I thought he meant college as the things that have all become universities (like polytechnics for non-technicals), leading to the terms being used interchangeably (here, Scotland). I forgot about the English ones, which, like cricket, I still don't fully understand (can you imagine: someone confused by Hollyoaks.... The humanity!)

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

College and university (none / 0) (#40)
by Afty on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:20:06 AM EST

Whenever I see American films/programs (my only real contact with american culture) 'college' is portrayed as somewhere you travel to, and often live there. This is rare in the UK, instead you go to 'college' at 16, then travel away from home (usually) to 'university' at 18. There are age disparities in the two systems, I am led to believe. Could someone from the USA perhaps enlighten me on this, as in where do 'school' and 'college' start and finish, and are there any other levels?
----------- Afty / Russ
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

College in the US... (none / 0) (#50)
by decoy on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 09:28:01 AM EST

In the US we just call university college. You go to high school from about 14-18, and then, if you want to, you go to college after that.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

spleen. (3.66 / 3) (#23)
by harb on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:56:20 AM EST
(bda@mirrorshades.org) http://mirrorshades.org/

I am qpt's broken heart.

bda.

she.never.really.belonged.to.me
[ Reply to This | ]

Editorial: +1 Section (4.50 / 2) (#18)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:12:32 AM EST
(codemonkey_uk(at)hotmail(dot)com) http://thad.notagoth.org/

Well written? Yes.
Interesting? Yes.
Worthy of Discussion? Yes.
Of interest outside K5? No.

+1 Section, whether or not you think qtp is troll.

Thad
Listen: Music!
Test your guru skills: C++ FIGHT!
[ Reply to This | ]

Editorial: Subjectivity. (4.00 / 1) (#20)
by i on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:30:23 AM EST

Well written? Yes.

No.

Interesting? Yes.

No.

Worthy of Discussion? Yes.

No.

Of interest outside K5? No.

No.

+1 Section

-1.

--
^{sig goes after newline, two dashes, space and another newline}
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Editorial: Yes (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:45:27 AM EST
(codemonkey_uk(at)hotmail(dot)com) http://thad.notagoth.org/

Well, if thats what you think thats how you should vote. A -1 for those reasons is a legitimate -1. A -1 because qtp is "a troll", or a -1 because you don't want k5 to be critisised, is not.

Thad
Listen: Music!
Test your guru skills: C++ FIGHT!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Editorial: Ahem... (4.60 / 5) (#17)
by JCB on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:11:45 AM EST
(jcb_email@yahoo.com) http://www.geocities.com/jcb_email/

How's this for rejection? -1!

Exclusion isn't a sin! I practice it freely!

</mimicry mode>

"I'm sorry, but it's vital to the health of the U.S. economy that we destroy the entire Earth." -- Chris Stratton, Delivery Driver

[ Reply to This | ]

agreed (4.33 / 3) (#16)
by enterfornone on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 05:51:32 AM EST
(spam@enterfornone.com) http://www.enterfornone.net/

I too feel that K5's moderation system is flawed. That is why I spent countless hours developing a new and perfect moderation system. The moderation system at enterfornone.net is such a system. All stories are chosen by enterfornone. All (3) posts are moderated by enterfornone.

As I have chosen not to patent this system you can easily go and do the same.

--
enterfornone
[ Reply to This | ]

[subject] :) (none / 0) (#19)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:15:39 AM EST
(codemonkey_uk(at)hotmail(dot)com) http://thad.notagoth.org/

ll stories are chosen by enterfornone. All (3) posts are moderated by enterfornone.

As I have chosen not to patent this system you can easily go and do the same.

Wouldn't that put quite a strain on your time? :)

Thad
Listen: Music!
Test your guru skills: C++ FIGHT!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Editorial: Oh yes .. (4.50 / 4) (#12)
by Eloquence on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 05:00:39 AM EST

.. why should we tolerate someone whose last comments primarily consisted of editorial notes that you vote down everything that is posted? "-1, always -1". Well, in that case, take a dose of your own medicine.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy … Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: Thats a bit petty isn't it? (none / 0) (#67)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:54:32 AM EST
(codemonkey_uk(at)hotmail(dot)com) http://thad.notagoth.org/

An eye for an eye and eventually we'll be blind.

Thad
Listen: Music!
Test your guru skills: C++ FIGHT!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Editorial: I forgot, of course .. (none / 0) (#79)
by Eloquence on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 03:01:26 PM EST

.. the valuable lessons that we, as a community, might learn from his comments. The irreplaceable nature of a viewpoint other than your own. As Jon Katz put it, moderation is just another form of censorship. We should be forced to listen to everyone's view for a certain amount of time all day. Only then will we able to strive beyond the limitations of our own selective minds.

Yeah, right. Sorry, but sometimes you've got to be harsh to keep your site running. If you want to look at the intellectual and emotional level of these people, here's a site that you can visit every day. But please, not on K5.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy … Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

My dear qpt (3.60 / 5) (#11)
by tokage on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:57:05 AM EST
(robrobertson11 at yahoo.com)

You've gone and done it. Let me break down for you exactly why you are banned. *drumroll*

Jin is a girl! Men in #kuro5hin(and elsewhere) like girls! Especially girls like her! Impress and protect, or something. Take KTB furiously defending her, for example. Sad to say, I would advise you to focus your energy elsewhere, a new obsession is in order. As this story will likely be dumped soon, I must confess I believe you should have posted this as a diary entry. My sense of sick amusement lead me to vote +1FP, however.

As for kuro5hin, I agree. There is a lot of elitism going on here, but hell, that's normal human behavior. Anytime a group of people get together there's going to be people who are excluded for whatever reason(in your case, somewhat warranted, I am loathe to say). This site seems to attract the popular "what can we as a Community do to fix $GLOBAL_PROBLEM" (see mini discussion if you care to) mindset. I agree with what trhurler said here in his diary. To be honest, I find myself caring increasingly less about k5 as I find it populated by people I would be avoiding speaking to in a social situation(viewpoint-wise). I wish there was an ignore feature of scoop, where you could filter out people who's comments you don't care to see anywhere.

Now as for IRC, well, that's different. I don't see any set rules for channel behavior regarding bans and stuff. I personally like your inane chatter, but some do not. I think maybe what you need is an offline hobby, something to keep your mind occupied while you're going through Jin_Wicked withdrawl. I must get back to work now, patching servers and such.

You better pray to God there's some Thorazine in that bag, otherwise you're in bad fucking trouble.
[ Reply to This | ]

like hell (2.33 / 3) (#28)
by streetlawyer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:13:42 AM EST
(johnsaulmontoya@butwithoutthespam.yahoo.com)

Jin is a girl! Men in #kuro5hin(and elsewhere) like girls! Especially girls like her! Impress and protect, or something.

Or alternatively, men with self-esteem issues *don't* like girls, because they remind them of rejection. As a result, men in kuro5hin and elsewhere act like assholes to them. Some men with fewer self-esteem problems object to people acting like assholes, and tell them not to.

So don't. And please put me in your killfile as soon as you are able; I don't want you reading my interesting content.

--John Montoya, the original streetlawyer; accept no cheap imitations
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] No (none / 0) (#59)
by tokage on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:28:27 AM EST
(robrobertson11 at yahoo.com)

I think it's more of a love hate love thing online. I know several people like that, they feel insecure about who they are as a person, and worry about other people's views of themselves so they end up with all this pent up frustration layered with some self loathing. Enter the medium of IRC, where you can remain relatively anonymous(indeed most online chat type services and weblogs), they have a tendancy to vent that confusion, anger and such upon others online, especially women. I have actually not witnessed much of this on k5 weblog or IRC channel, beyond this qpt/jin thing which is something different altogether. I think it was just boredom initially that escalated into something else, a weird little entertainment that stuck in his mind and was carried too far. It clashing with her personality is what amused me.

As far as treating people like assholes, well, that's rich coming from you. Most threads you get in start off agressive, and indeed hostile intially. Don't tell me about posessing low self esteem until you look in the mirror - I'm not the one who is constantly posting ridiculous stories and trying to flame down every comment that comes my way. In my experience, people who are overtly hostile with no provocation are either: 1) disgusing their lack of knowledge on the subject with an overwhelming aggressive tone or 2) insecure about their content of their own thoughts, pissed off at the world, angsty etc.

In any event, were there a killfile I would no doubt be tempted to add you. A good 80% of what you post is in my opinion cruft that I could do without reading.

You better pray to God there's some Thorazine in that bag, otherwise you're in bad fucking trouble.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] substitute people for girls (5.00 / 1) (#57)
by theR on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:25:13 AM EST

Men with self-esteem issues *don't* like people seems closer to the truth to me. While women on #kuro5hin often take the brunt and a portion of the crowd will immediately start paying attention to a female (or someone perceived as female) that joins the channel, I find that the assholes are generally obnoxious towards everybody. Some of them are sincerely assholes, some have an asshole persona, some are insecure, and some (all?) are a combination of those.

There is also the "nice guys finish last" factor, I think. It is often perceived that women like assholes in real life. It may be that some people who do not have the balls to be assholes in person choose to make up for it by doing it through their internet connections. I think tokage's comment about "impress and protect" is actually fairly accurate. After all, there's nothing more impressive to a girl than a guy that is an asshole, right?

"We just need the one who wants peace and stability in the country. We just want that one."
--Kabul resident, Murad Mohd, on who should govern Afghanistan.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

how many troll accounts do you have? (2.80 / 5) (#4)
by plastik55 on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:12:21 AM EST
(square_rave@neuk.net) http://www.adequacy.org/

as of this writing we have eight votes for the story, two against....hmmm. Funny, everyone who voted for the story voted it FP. This is a tad, ah, unusual? Hmm. I will reload. Now there are ten FP votes. A little later there are twelve. Maybe a little, ah, ballot stuffing is going on? Good thing kuro5hin lets me know who voted it FP:

t3chie
suky
quantum pixie
quilla pandora
Kiss The Blade
Herbert PagetPaget
zikzak
Urban Existentialist
Lover's Arrival, The
pb
kumquat
podrodena stanica

I will posit the hypothesis that these twelve accounts do not belong to twelve different people.

I will also make the observation that the first step in avoiding rejection is to stop acting like a creepy weirdo.

[ Reply to This | ]

[new] More Evidence (1.50 / 2) (#58)
by baberg on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:25:42 AM EST
(baberg@mps.ohio-state.edu) http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~baberg/

If you'll notice, the first comment posted to this story was by Kiss the Blade, who was implicated in the conspiracy theory. It was a rather long comment posted 20 minutes after the story was posted. Not a big deal; it's easy to comment on this story.

Comment #3 was posted by kumquat, was replied to by KtB, and replied to again by kumquat. Looking through the comments, all the comments posted by kumkuat and KtB were posted with no less than 10 minutes difference between the times posted, and they all seemed to stop at around the same time... Maybe when KtB got tired of fanning the flames of his own troll?

This kind of shit makes me sick. Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than troll K5, KtB? Head back to geekizoid and /. We don't want your kind here.

-----------
OOG NEED HOOKUP FAST SO OOG CAN GET HAMMERED -- OOG THE CAVEMAN
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Brilliant. (3.50 / 2) (#64)
by OriginalGTT on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:50:07 AM EST
(originalgtt@NOSPAMyahoo.com)

OOG NEED HOOKUP FAST SO OOG CAN GET HAMMERED -- OOG THE CAVEMAN

Simultaneously deride KTB while having a link and a quote from OOG?

Absolutely brilliant. That kind of hypocrisy is usually only made by someone of streetlawyers ilk. Bravo, and good show!

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] Hypocrisy (2.00 / 1) (#76)
by baberg on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 12:57:28 PM EST
(baberg@mps.ohio-state.edu) http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~baberg/

Yeah. It's called a ".sig". Perhaps you should look into it. In general, it's a witty, interesting, or amusing quote usually said by somebody else that gives a hint to the personality of the poster. The fact that I laughed my ass off when I read OOG's diary that day and decided to honor OOG by putting his quote in my .sig file.

Find the humor in the quote and learn to look past the person who wrote it.

-----------
OOG NEED HOOKUP FAST SO OOG CAN GET HAMMERED -- OOG THE CAVEMAN
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] ROFL! (5.00 / 2) (#78)
by OriginalGTT on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 01:28:53 PM EST
(originalgtt@NOSPAMyahoo.com)

Excuse me, I didn't realize you attended Ohio State. I will stop being subtle.

You said..

This kind of shit makes me sick. Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than troll K5, KtB? Head back to geekizoid and /. We don't want your kind here.

Then you said....

Find the humor in the quote and learn to look past the person who wrote it.

Now, these two statements completely contradict each other. Either you want trolls gone, like KTB and OOG, or you have to look past the person and look at what they are saying.

I'm still laughing. At you.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

haha. (4.00 / 1) (#22)
by harb on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:52:39 AM EST
(bda@mirrorshades.org) http://mirrorshades.org/

"I will also make the observation that the first step in avoiding rejection is to stop acting like a creepy weirdo."

Haha.. I'm tempted to use that as a .sig.

bda.

she.never.really.belonged.to.me
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Uh, sure (1.50 / 2) (#5)
by kumquat on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:16:38 AM EST
(fake email address)

Since you don't want to see the story posted you cry "conspiracy". Right.

ADEQUACY.ORG has returned from a near-death experience.
Visit today!

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

User info. (4.50 / 2) (#15)
by i on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 05:29:00 AM EST

qpt's email address : quantum_pixie (at) hotmail.com
quantum pixie's email address : quantum_pixie (at) hotmail.com
Conspiracy? Nah, coincidence. Because quilla pandora's email address is not quantum_pixie, it's quilla_pandora (at) hotmail.com. See?

--
^{sig goes after newline, two dashes, space and another newline}
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

No, it's just funny. (2.00 / 2) (#7)
by plastik55 on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:28:13 AM EST
(square_rave@neuk.net) http://www.adequacy.org/

I don't care one way or another. k5 deserves the trolls it's going to get.

If it gets posted on the front page I'll send you a dollar for a job well done.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

God, this is exactly what I mean (3.00 / 7) (#3)
by kumquat on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:09:40 AM EST
(fake email address)

Earlier this evening I posted a disparaging comment about Jin, which several people took offense to. I made mention of a narcissistic girl attemping to create a cult based around herself, and it looks like her siren call was indeed answered by one poor lad.

I don't have a whole lot of pity for qpt. He walked into this trap willingly. But banned for his actions? This, gentle readers, is all to typical in my opinion.

I am not familiar with exactly what happened, but I can make a pretty good guess. You have an attention-seeking harlot posting suggestive pictures (not to mention a 'boyfriend test') on her web page to attract admirers, but when she succeeds in gaining this attention what happens? She cries foul, demanding protection from the same people she intentionally set out to lure. And our society, our politically correct society, falls all over itself to protect a 'poor, young innocent' from some evil beast who was only doing what was asked of him.

Who was the real villain here? The earnest young man who only sought to express his admiration for this girl? Or a temptress who willingly leads men into situations where they can not win and then expects to be rescued from a situation she herself has created?

But common wisdom tells us that the man is at fault, and must be punished for making the mistake of believing himself worthy of the object of his affections. This is just plain wrong.

ADEQUACY.ORG has returned from a near-death experience.
Visit today!

[ Reply to This | ]

give over (3.50 / 2) (#9)
by streetlawyer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:38:02 AM EST
(johnsaulmontoya@butwithoutthespam.yahoo.com)

who's the obsessive? you've now posted upwards of five hundred words about Jin this morning. Leave her alone already; at least her stuff is interesting.

streetlawyer, certifying he has never looked at the website, and typically turns graphics off anyway.

--John Montoya, the original streetlawyer; accept no cheap imitations
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

actually (3.33 / 3) (#8)
by tokage on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:36:56 AM EST
(robrobertson11 at yahoo.com)

I agree with some of that. The level of commotion surrounding this whole situation irritates me. Jin does indeed bring attention to herself, apparently craves it even. The part that annoys me is she then professes to dislike chatting with people(or doesn't have time anymore, whatever), talks about how she doesn't allow people on her icq list unless they 'donate money' or something of the sort. Her entire site is disturbingly self involved, as is from what I can tell her thought process. We are all admittedly as human beings by definition egocentric beings, but for christ sake, why would she expect me(or anyone) to donate money to her? At first, I was pretty apathetic towards her and this whole situation, but now I find myself increasingly irritated. Luckily, I can slip back into not giving a fuck pretty easily. This kind of 'entice people to take an interest in you then pretend to despise the attention' behavior is simply childish. Each to their own, I suppose. The thing is, if she wasn't so utterly self involved(from what I can tell hanging out in #kuro5hin and from the few times I poked around her site) she'd be a pretty cool person. There's no denying she's intelligent and can carry on an interesting conversation, her art is pretty cool etc.

Anyway, bah, who cares. If she didn't apparently crave the public eye we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, but I still feel lame for particpating in any form. It's just, if you want to be a flirt and string people along(or whatever your thing is) that's fine, just don't be shocked when people take an interest, or pretend you are doing otherwise. Women like that have always annoyed me.

You better pray to God there's some Thorazine in that bag, otherwise you're in bad fucking trouble.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

pot, meet kettle (2.00 / 2) (#26)
by streetlawyer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:04:38 AM EST
(johnsaulmontoya@butwithoutthespam.yahoo.com)

Just a question; do you think it's "childish" to be so transparently jealous of someone for being more popular than you?

--John Montoya, the original streetlawyer; accept no cheap imitations
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] hehe (none / 0) (#62)
by tokage on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:42:12 AM EST
(robrobertson11 at yahoo.com)

Is that how I came across as? You misunderstand me then, I honestly do not care about that entire situation. Last night I was posting with the knowledge that this story would not be be voted up(sorry qpt) and simply extended a few observations I've had over the past few months of seeing them both on IRC. KTB jumping in was another matter, he sometimes gets on my nerves for other reasons which I stated in one of my more recent posts. I had no desire to get into that kind of debate with him when he(deliberately?) took the path of Righteous Indignation to defend her(I realized they're friends or whatever).

Being irritated by people is not a crime. Posting observations about people's interactions does not make me jealous or wish to become more popular. I could care less about you, ktb, jin and most of k5 in general. It's simply something to occupy my time(such as now, when I'm waiting to leave work). There are quite a few people who are interesting and fun to talk to, but somehow not having your reputation, or part in ktb's little troll club(no offense to them all, some of them are entertaining) doesn't keep me up at night. I'll continue to carry on through the pain of my lack of participation in such things, though it will be a sorely trying affair.

You better pray to God there's some Thorazine in that bag, otherwise you're in bad fucking trouble.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] fair enough (none / 0) (#69)
by streetlawyer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:09:42 AM EST
(johnsaulmontoya@butwithoutthespam.yahoo.com)

I just get annoyed when people who I regard as interesting and worthwhile posters get it in the neck, and since I am usually better placed to defend them than they are themselves, I ploughed in. Yours seemed like a reasonable response.

--John Montoya, the original streetlawyer; accept no cheap imitations
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

How very 19th Century of you. (4.00 / 3) (#13)
by Kiss the Blade on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 05:01:30 AM EST
(Kiss_The_Blade@disinfo.netNOSPAM)

Jin does indeed bring attention to herself, apparently craves it even.

How do you know this? The only reason she gets so much attention is because she is - *gasp* - female, and fearlessly outspoken. This is the oldest trick in the book - 'female X gets lots of attention, what a slut', when in fact the fault is in the males giving the attention like the dickheads (in the sense of being ourely sexually motivated) they are. I thought we moved beyond this crap years ago; apparantly not.

The part that annoys me is she then professes to dislike chatting with people(or doesn't have time anymore, whatever), talks about how she doesn't allow people on her icq list unless they 'donate money' or something of the sort.

Gee thats strange. Donate money? I know this isn't the case. And from what I have seen she is perfectly willing to say when she enjoys conversation, and when she does not. Just because she dislikes talking to some people does not mean she dislikes talking to all people. As a geek, you should know this.

Her entire site is disturbingly self involved, as is from what I can tell her thought process.

Er, newsflash: Homepages are always self involved. The substance is no different from many other homepages - just more interesting and more profound. And as she is an aspiring artist, her homepage also serves as a showcase for her work. I think criticising someone because their homepage is 'self-involved' is a bit of a joke, frankly.

This kind of 'entice people to take an interest in you then pretend to despise the attention' behavior is simply childish.

Oh dear, those double standards again. She attracts attention because of who she is, and you expect her to apologise for being selective.

If she didn't apparently crave the public eye we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, but I still feel lame for particpating in any form. It's just, if you want to be a flirt and string people along(or whatever your thing is) that's fine, just don't be shocked when people take an interest, or pretend you are doing otherwise. Women like that have always annoyed me.

And again. You seem to have a very 19th century idea of how women behave. Very prescriptive of you I must say. But don't worry - it must be the fault of an intelligent female when she attracts attention on a site populated by sex starved geeks with an inferiority complex and then proceeds to shake off the more irksome and annoying ones, right? Of course.

It all seems so clear to me now.

KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no contradiction.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

heh (3.00 / 2) (#14)
by tokage on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 05:23:15 AM EST
(robrobertson11 at yahoo.com)

I have neither the time nor desire to get into any kind of discussion with you. Almost every post or thought I have seem coming from you has been either deliberately inflammatory, or contradictory for contradictions' own sake. Do me a favor do not speak to me. You're just a noise generator, thriving on meaningless arguments and inane conversation. I do not have the desire to get into a discussion with one of the very few k5-ers who actually irritate me. The counter-arguments to your statements are painfully obviously, if you would step down from your pedestal of (self-assumed) intellectual superiority and actually think about what you are saying.

I realize Jin is an online friend(acquaintance?) of yours, and that you feel some misbegotten need to Defend Her Honor, but I honestly have no desire to discuss anything with you at all, especially something as volatile as this, subject to personal intepretation. I feel that any discussion with you on this subject would be pointless and just a waste of my time.

In case I haven't made myself clear enough, I do not wish to converse with you and will not be responding to anything you say.

You better pray to God there's some Thorazine in that bag, otherwise you're in bad fucking trouble.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Cooo (none / 0) (#34)
by Kiss the Blade on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 07:50:19 AM EST
(Kiss_The_Blade@disinfo.netNOSPAM)

Clearly you didn't understand my post. Do you always run away?

KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no contradiction.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Sexist (3.50 / 2) (#6)
by Kiss the Blade on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:27:08 AM EST
(Kiss_The_Blade@disinfo.netNOSPAM)

What rot.

Earlier this evening I posted a disparaging comment about Jin

It was disparaging alright. You tore her apart for making a comment about spelling, in the most absurd manner.

You have an attention-seeking harlot posting suggestive pictures (not to mention a 'boyfriend test') on her web page to attract admirers, but when she succeeds in gaining this attention what happens? She cries foul, demanding protection from the same people she intentionally set out to lure. And our society, our politically correct society, falls all over itself to protect a 'poor, young innocent' from some evil beast who was only doing what was asked of him.

I suppose you are the sort of guy who thinks that if a girl wears a miniskirt and gets raped, it was her own fault. Well, I'm afraid I don't subscribe to this absurd and very cruel viewpoint. Jin Wicked has an artistic and interesting site, and it is clear that the elements you mention are tounge in cheek. You just need a sense of humour. You also seem to think that qpt should not take responsibility for his actions. That it is somehow completely beyond him to ignore the demands of his hormones.

'Suggestive pictures'? Please, they are perfectly normal pictures from what I have seen. Would you rather she veil herself?

But common wisdom tells us that the man is at fault, and must be punished for making the mistake of believing himself worthy of the object of his affections. This is just plain wrong.

No, the man is responsible for his own actions. That is the nub here. This poor girl is attacked for no other reason than being female and original as far as I can see. You are just yet another k5 freak with double standards.

Your idiotic attitude makes me sick.

KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no contradiction.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Oh, that's low (1.00 / 1) (#10)
by kumquat on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:47:31 AM EST
(fake email address)

Anytime someone suggests that maybe some women bring trouble on themselves you always trot out the miniskirt/rape bit. Are we talking about rape? No, I don't think so. We are talking about a foolish man who made the mistake of expressing his emotions in public.

Yet, without fail, here you are demonizing him as a rapist. Are shades of grey totally alien to your way of thinking? Do you really equate harmless love messages with rape?!? This sort of thinking just really pisses me off.

She is asking for attention. She has illustrations of herself posted on her website where the only thing obscuring her genatalia is a piece of circuitry. I do not ask for a veil, nor would I dare ask for her to even refrain from posting such content. I simply ask her to take responsibility for the reprocussions of doing such a thing. No more, no less.

ADEQUACY.ORG has returned from a near-death experience.
Visit today!

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

an experiment (2.00 / 1) (#24)
by streetlawyer on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 06:57:06 AM EST
(johnsaulmontoya@butwithoutthespam.yahoo.com)

Right. So anyone who makes any sort of display in public is thereby "seeking attention", and has no right to comment on or to dislike the form that attention may take?

Let's see whether you're so keen on this idea after your userpage has spent a week or so in my bookmarks .....

--John Montoya, the original streetlawyer; accept no cheap imitations
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

comments (4.00 / 3) (#2)
by switchfiend on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 04:02:31 AM EST
(nicod@tengu[spamfilter]labs.com) http://www.tengulabs.com

This would be fitting for a journal entry, man. Certainly not something to post up to the main page.

I feel bad if you have a feeling of intimacy with k5'rs from reading their online diaries, as I would say that it represents at best a small portion of what they are like.

I have no idea what prompted you to be kicked from #kuro5hin, but if it has anything to do with your creepy journal entries about that Jin_wicked girl, then I think it was probably warranted.

Certainly, you have a right to feel however you want, and I would suppose you have a right to express those feelings however you choose.

But, rights and responsibilities are closely related, and certainly other people have rights as well.

If I were this girl you are obsessing over (and I think obsessing is a fitting word from reading your journal entries), I'd be super creeped out.

You share your private emotions to the world via your journal, so don't be surprised when people shun you for it.

Most people don't broadcast their deepest intimates to the public at large, with good reason.

I hope its cathartic for you to share this shit, but don't be surprised when people judge you from it.

You state that you feel you "know" people based on their K5 identities. One could argue that they "know" you based on your k5 persona, and that limited information certainly points to you being a hypersensitive, obsessive guy.

Is that a correct assumption? Probably not, but don't be surprised to be rejected by the populace at large...

It also probably doesn't help to be spouting off about your love for someone to a site that they most likely read (and then bitch about being shy). Its sort of a lame copout, avoiding rejection by never directly dealing with the situation.

But I digress, who am I to judge you? nobody. just like you...

[ Reply to This | ]

[new] agreed... somewhat (none / 0) (#72)
by cando on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 11:11:33 AM EST
(cando_b@deleteme.yahoo.com) http://www.monmouth.com/~cando

I agree that this would be more fitting as a journal entry. However, the point made about the somewhat exclusionary nature of k5 is important.

I am unfamiliar with the whole jin-qpt saga, and personally, I couldn't care less. I have enough of my own things to deal with relationship wise, as I'm sure most people do.

Back to the elitism of k5. I generally sit back and observe on this site. I like it here. Genuinely.

I do, unfortunately, see the same cliquish behavior here that is present everywhere else in the world. I don't think it can be avoided. People tend to stick to their own. All others are 'outsiders'. There is another comment somewhere in here that address the fact that this article is a mirror. It reflects real things that we are possible too close to for comfort. Therefore, I do believe that this article has some merit. Possibly not FP merit, but posting merit.

[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Something rotten in our community (4.16 / 6) (#1)
by Kiss the Blade on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 03:55:06 AM EST
(Kiss_The_Blade@disinfo.netNOSPAM)

I think it is a shame that qpt, one of the posters I like more, is banned from this community. Whilst he is a quirky and even irresponsible personality, he always brought lightness to k5 with his cheeky, humourous ways.

I always thought he was irrepressable. But, like him, I didn't reckon with the immovable force of the k5 system. The system that destroys interesting, original and amusing posters because the majority have no sense of humour.

Perhaps the k5 system would be better if it just banned for a few days, like slashdot, instead of rendering people invisible, persona non grata.

It is true that qpt has done some despicable things. His shameless treatment of Jin Wicked is well known on k5, and in #kuro5hin. He treated her very strangely indeed.

Jin is another who is routinely attacked merely because her views differ. Why are the most interesting posters the ones who suffer so? Jin Wicked is routinely subject to flames, qpt is rendered a non-person. What have they done to deserve this?

Nothing but give us the benefit of their unique outlook.

KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no contradiction.
[ Reply to This | ]

He was none of those things. (1.00 / 1) (#46)
by pwhysall on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:54:38 AM EST
(pwhysall@hotmail.com) http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/board/show?boardid=1

He was neither interesting, original nor amusing.

He was, however, bloody annoying.
--
Peter

There is no K5 Cabal.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

errr (4.00 / 1) (#37)
by axxeman on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:02:01 AM EST

If qpt is banned from K5, how did he post this article?

The answer is, he isn't banned. He's banned from #kuro5hin, the IRC channel associated with the website.

On the kuro5hin website, he merely doesn't have trusted user status, which merely means he can't rate posts below 1 or see posts rated below 1. No big deal - I'm not trusted at the moment, no difference whatsoever. Trusted is also extremely easily obtained using fake accounts.

Oh and all of this was clearly stated in the article.

lec…tur…er (lkchr-r) n. Abbr. lectr: graduate unemployable outside the faculty.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Hrm I got that bit wrong. (3.00 / 1) (#39)
by Kiss the Blade on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 08:09:16 AM EST
(Kiss_The_Blade@disinfo.netNOSPAM)

He can still post, but his default posting score is below 1, so he can't see his own posts or participate in discussions, and nor can the great majority of the users - the untrusted users.

I didn't mean to say banned, I was getting mixed up with the IRC channel there.

KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no contradiction.
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

[new] A quick view of qpt's comments (none / 0) (#65)
by lee_malatesta on Wed May 16th, 2001 at 10:51:06 AM EST
(lee_malatesta@yahoo.com) http://www.geocities.com/lee_malatesta/

Looking at comments by qpt reveals that many are rated at above a score of 1. A good deal of trusted users regularly rate up comments with a score of 0 that ought to be readable by the teaming mass of untrusted users.

I would presume that if this happens enough, the default rating for comments by qpt will no longer be 0.

Nothing can be more pitiful and absurd than to pride oneself on one's genius
Nikolai Aleksandrovich Berdyaev, "The Ethics of Creativity"
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Rejected | 79 comments (60 topical, 19 editorial, 1 pending) | Post A Comment | Edit Story

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