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 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Apr 24, 2002
Today is ANZAC Day.

More diaries by ausduck
The scramjet failed :(
The cricket drama
Hats off to em
I hope you all find the time today to give two minutes of silence in remembrance of those Australian and New Zealand soldiers fallen in war, most notably those who died at Gallipoli in 1915, of whom only one remains today.
Lest we forget.


But aren't they just subsumed... (1.00 / 1) (#1)
by elenchos on Wed Apr 24th, 2002 at 09:54:23 PM PST
...under the category of England, etc? They are the "etc" part. What more do you want? Pretty soon you'll have us treating the Falkland Islands like some important nation or something.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

You are so right (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by Ben Reid on Wed Apr 24th, 2002 at 11:14:02 PM PST
How dare we pay respects to the honour, valour, mateship, sacrifice and duty above self of the ANZACs. After all, what are these men in comparison to a self-centred egotistical maniac like yourself?

America is the only country of any importance, in fact, I'm getting carried away here, I'd say you, yes you, are the only important thing in this world.

The world doesn't revolve around the sun, heliocentrism is all a crock, the world revolves around you, elenchos. Elenchiocentrism.

I suppose you are prepared... (1.00 / 1) (#3)
by elenchos on Wed Apr 24th, 2002 at 11:39:10 PM PST give us evidence for this spastic stream of accusations you have spewn forth? Egotism? Self-centered?? Do you think at all before you write? Are these just your general-purpose flames?

They must be, because you'll find no evidence to make them apply to me, of that you can be sure.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Look (5.00 / 1) (#5)
by Ben Reid on Wed Apr 24th, 2002 at 11:52:02 PM PST
Of course you don't think you have an ego problem, it's like the chronic drinker who is the last one to admit he is an alcholic. It's loud and clear from everything you write.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you couldn't find anything. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by elenchos on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 01:23:11 AM PST
Since the reasoning behind your accusation is of the most despicably fallacious sort, you would do well to dig up some evidence. Otherwise, we are left gawking at a fool who clings to the unfalsifiable out of pure malice, or ignorance.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Gawk all you like (none / 0) (#9)
by Ben Reid on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 02:44:50 AM PST
Here's the evidence.

In any case, why would you care if I, a mere nobody in the grand scheme of things, call you self-centred? As an atheist, I would have thought you'd be proud, it's actually a compliment isn't it? After all, you've got to maximise your happiness while you're here cause' this is all you've got, right? And the only way to do that is to look out for numero uno, no-one else. Sure, you may pretend to accomodate and show love towards other people every now and then, but ultimately, it's all for your own self satisfaction and happiness.

Fact is, mate, that for all the bravado you present on weblogs, there lies a man with just as many insecurities as everyone else. You can spend all your time worrying about mere trifles (like an imaginary insult to your honour) but, remember, it could all end tomorrow, and the truly important things may have passed you by.

Hopefully, I have annoyed you enough to reflect on what it is you're aiming for in life and how exactly you plan on doing it. I won't be around here after the next few days, so (luckily for you) you won't have to put up with me any more.

More accusations. No evidence. (none / 0) (#13)
by elenchos on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 02:04:31 PM PST
Why is it so difficult for you to point out the basis of your absurd claims? Instead of simply giving one single example to support this slander, you instead invent more wild charges.

What on Earth is the basis for this bizzare accusation:
    After all, you've got to maximise your happiness while you're here cause' this is all you've got, right? And the only way to do that is to look out for numero uno, no-one else.
Have I ever once said anything that suggests I believe this? Anything??

Shame on you, sir. Anyone with a shred of common decency would have admitted his error by now, but you simply go on inventing more terroristic false charges. Why do we allow rabble such as yourself at this fine site?

Your every post is nothing but insult and harm to to the innocent. Shame on you, I say again.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

You still don't get it do you (none / 0) (#14)
by Ben Reid on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 04:28:39 PM PST
See, I did give evidence, I'm stating that pretty much every comment (you want a concrete example, OK, take your first post in this diary) and article I've seen you write (say, Kill Yr Idols: God) smacks of arrogance. You want me to list every one of them?

The thing is, why should you be so worried, if my accusations are so baseless and wrong, if I am just some ignorant fool, then I'm sure people will figure it out for themselves, won't they? I'll give you a hint though, I'm not the only one who thinks along these lines.

One thing is for certain, trying to get into a naming war with me is pointless because, frankly, I don't care about my pride, only you do.

I do this to serve the public good. (none / 0) (#15)
by elenchos on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 08:25:05 PM PST
Members of the Public, such as yourself, come to seeking the chance to interact with the intellectual leaders of the day. While perhaps we ought to just ignore you, and even lock you out of the site altogether, as long as we are letting in just anybody, we might as well make an effort to share ourselves with you.

Surely this makes some sense to you? Else, why are you posting at all?

I am thankful that at last you have taken a step -- a small step -- on the road to specificity. So we have one comment, saying that England's subordinate nations are included generally whenever we think of England, and one article, discussing the theology of the Islamic defeat of the West on September 11. So?

What do you find is so arrogant? What? Have you never constructed an argument before? Why can't you just come out and tell me what qualifies in your mind as arrogance, and self-centeredness, and then point to what it is I said that meets this qualification?


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Thank you (none / 0) (#16)
by Ben Reid on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 10:37:38 PM PST
for so beautifully illustrating my point, no really.

As usual. (none / 0) (#17)
by elenchos on Fri Apr 26th, 2002 at 12:16:00 AM PST
I find myself the victim of a campaign of harassment by a hacker/terrorist. You may think having wasted everyone's time with your nonsense is some kind of victory, and I'm sure the other Internet harassers are cheering you on, but rest assured your activities are being recorded in infinite detail, and that the record of this attack will never be expunged.

Your fascist gambits to destroy will fail as all the others have failed. Better luck next time.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Where I stand (none / 0) (#19)
by First Incision on Fri Apr 26th, 2002 at 11:00:13 PM PST
I would like to go on record as an Elenchiocentrist. While sometimes your comments get tedious, we all do that. I find your Front Page stories enlightening, entertaining and life-affirming.
Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

Excellent (none / 0) (#20)
by Ben Reid on Sat Apr 27th, 2002 at 02:13:48 AM PST
Please do record my words, reflect on them daily, I'm not interested in victories, but it looks like I've struck a nerve and that's a positive first step.

I want to know however, how'd you figure out that I was a fascist (I'd like to think I'm more of a communist, but, whatever) hacker? What gave it away? Was it just a hunch?

You an extremely important individual... (none / 0) (#22)
by elenchos on Sat Apr 27th, 2002 at 11:59:29 AM PST the same sense that some crazed high-shool weirdo roaming loose with a loaded gun is important. You normally wouldn't matter, but any total loser is capable of becoming the center of attention if he is willing to resort to TERRORISM. This is the tactic of choice among's enemies. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that those enemies are drawn from the ranks of hackers. And you needn't tell us that you are an agent of the Communist Open Sores plot. But who do you think you are fooling in claiming to not be fascist? How else would you describe your objective in attacking the only web site on the Internet willing to tell the Truth?

So yeah, like Tim McVeigh or Mohammed Atta, you may proudly claim "I struck a nerve!" Congradulations, terrorist. You have succeeded in gaining our undivided attention through your criminal deeds. Don't think I don't see the connection between your campaign of harassment and the virus I recieved in my email this morning. I see the connections that point back to activities all too clearly. I think it is the shame of the age we find ourselves in that so many lost souls such as yourself are so desperate for attention.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Los Nachos equates himself with.... (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Apr 27th, 2002 at 01:14:11 PM PST
With When in fact, you are one of the anchors that is dragging it down. You use your authority much in the fashion that a New York City doorman uses his gold epaulets to bully people on the sidewalk.

Your input is ubiquitous and usually drivel. Your abuse of power would be frightening if it were in any forum of importance.

Stay here where you can do the 'gator' in the urine soaked slime of your own self importance. Los Nachos: a legend in his own mind.

They were fighting for Russia. (none / 0) (#4)
by Ernest Bludger on Wed Apr 24th, 2002 at 11:44:21 PM PST
The ANZAC (oh, and British etc) troops were fighting on the Gallipoli peninsular in an attempt to control European Turkey, and in particular the centre of the Ottoman empire, Constantinople.

Had they been successful, Constantinople was to have been handed over to Nicholas II, the last Tsar of Russia.

For those actually interested (none / 0) (#6)
by Ben Reid on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 12:00:36 AM PST
You can find out more information on ANZACs here and here, an ANZAC day tribute is here.

ANZAC day is one of the defining moments of Australian history, well white mans history anyway, the aborigines were here long before us and to be honest, the way we have treated them over the years has been deplorable.

Along with our convict origins, the ANZAC story has helped shape and mould the values that Australian society holds true today. It explains our admiration and support for the underdog or the little guy, the value and importance placed on mateship, our hatred of arrogance (there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance in Australia), our lack of respect for authority, our "take-the-piss-out-yourself" humour, our easy going and friendly persona. On the flipside, there are, of course, parts of our culture which leave a lot to be desired, the so called "tall poppy syndrome" and often racist undertones to name a few.

That's true. (none / 0) (#7)
by Ernest Bludger on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 12:19:07 AM PST
Gallipoli was an odd one since neither the Turks nor the ANZACs had any military of historical 'beef' with each other. This is reflected in the way visitors to Gallipoli are treated by the locals.

Over 15,000 (mainly) Australians will be attending services at Gallipoli today. Those there will receive an incredibly friendly welcome from the Turks. There is a bond quite different from that between, say, England and Germany. The older Turks appear to appreciate that (mainly young) people are making a significant effort to show respect for those that fought there. [The youngsters are all keen to practice their English].

The backpacker hostels in Istanbul and Chanakkale also love the fact that they sell 80% of their annual beer quota in a week!

More on Gallipoli (none / 0) (#10)
by Ben Reid on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 04:36:45 AM PST
Marked the emergence of two nations, the Turks and Australians. Australia, at the time, was a new nation, only 14 years old, and Gallipoli was the first time Australians from all over the country came to form an Australian army. The Turks were defending their land, and their spirit was at an all time high.

The ANZACs arrived at Gallipoli on April 25, 1915, and left on December 20 of that year, they were hopelessly outnumbered, it was a battle they could not win. The cost was great to both sides, the Turks lost an esimated 86,000 and of the nearly 50,000 Australians that fought, 8,709 were killed and 18,235 wounded. New Zealand suffered 2,701 killed and 4,880 wounded.

Despite the bloody battle, there were some remarkable events.

From here: On 24 May a truce to bury the dead and recover wounded was negotiated. Diggers and Turks mingled on the battle field in these sad tasks. Gifts were exchanged and a mutual recognition of each others humanity was born. From that point there existed a common respect for each other, although the fighting was as fierce as ever. The Australians would throw tins of Jam across the narrow no-mans land in exchange for Turkish tobacco. Snipers competing in a deadly duel would signal misses as if on a firing range. In the final withdrawal many units left notes and gifts for the victorious Turks.

This is a large reason why, to this day, Turks admire and respect the Australians and the courage, determination and skill shown by the ANZACS. As Ernest mentioned, Australians and New Zealanders are now welcomed with open arms and broad smiles at Gallipoli, especially around ANZAC commemoration time.

Interestingly too, after Gallipoli, Australians and Turks were not to meet again on the battlefield until the Korean war in 1952 when they were both serving under the United Nations mandate.

Turkey and Australia. Respect. (none / 0) (#11)
by Ernest Bludger on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 06:26:03 AM PST
Lieutenant Colonel Mustafa Kemal (1881-1938) commander of the 19th Infantry Division, led the Turkish troops who resisted the ANZAC soldiers advancing from the landings at Gallipoli. As the founder and first President of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is regarded as 'the father of the nation'.

These are his words - they appear at many ANZAC memorials.

Those heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives,
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lay
Side by side,
Here in this country of ours.
To the mothers
Who sent their sons from far away countries,
Wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bosom
And are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.

So, you're celebrating... (none / 0) (#18)
by teethgrinder on Fri Apr 26th, 2002 at 12:46:49 PM PST
the fact that a bunch of people killed each other and then everyone agreed that they're actually likeing each other.

This strikes me as a somewhat inefficient way to make friendships unless overpopulation was already a big issue back then.

Understanding Australia (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Apr 27th, 2002 at 06:51:37 AM PST
The ANZACs are a feature of Australian life, largely because our politicians invoke them at the merest glimmer of a televised interview. At the approach of a busload of senior citizens, our Prime Minister can be seen to draw himself up to his full stature, and speaking with teary eye, inform the nation that the bus is carrying on the ANZAC tradition that made our nation what it is today: in (roughly) his words, "America's deputy in Asia."

This is true of any Prime Minister, but the frequency with which our current PM has called upon the spirit of the ANZACs is cause for the nation to conclude that he expects the ANZAC spirit to manifest itself upon Parliament House in order to save politics from a tide of Indonesian immigrant baby throwers. Presumably this will occur shortly after the recently deceased Sir Donald Bradman returns to the Earth in the form of the spirit of Australian cricket to rescue Howard from irate indigenous lobbyists and Governors-General who are a bit soft on the paedophile issue.

The whole thing is rather macabre. While respect for the war dead is among the more noble sentiments a people can demonstrate, few other politicians dredge up the gruesome past so readily as do Australia's. Do we hear of George Bush calling upon his nation to display the great Yankee tradition that won the civil war? During the entire 9/11 crisis, did he once advise the nation to remember the GI spirit that forged America's identity?

Most nations let the soldiers who won their wars rest in their hard won peace. In Australia, we give them honourary seats in government.

ANZAC Day and NZ (none / 0) (#12)
by mjl on Thu Apr 25th, 2002 at 12:48:30 PM PST
I don't know that much about history, but I was told a few years ago that 25 April 1915 was Australia's loss, and that New Zealand's worst casualties were suffered on another date. I'm trying to find links to back this up, and at present this should be taken with a grain of salt.

A defining moment, nonetheless. Thanks for your comments, Ben.


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