Torture - it's inevitable, so lets do it right !

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Poll

Votes: 78

Torture - it's inevitable, so lets do it right !

Author:

dmg

Topic:

Justice

Posted:

Feb 03, 2002

Comments:

America is known throughout the world as a beacon of democracy and freedom. Almost everyone else in the world wishes they could come and live here, to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle and opportunities the USA has to offer.

And yet, amazingly there exists a small minority of people who would seek to destroy our very way of life...

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Terrorists. These American-hating men of violence, motivated by jealousy of our great nation seek to destroy us. They hate us for our freedoms, our democracy, our wealth, you name it, they hate us for it. They blame us for their own misfortunes. They piss and moan when we intervene, they piss and moan when we don't. It seems Americans cannot win with these people.

Now thanks to American military expertise we have hundreds of prisoners of war camping out in Cuba, and we have to decide what to do with them.

Well known legal expert Alan Dershowitz has already called for them to be tortured, and I think I am inclined to agree with him. I realise this is a controversial opinion, but I feel that the most controversial site on the Internet is an appropriate place to explain my stance.

People will argue that torture is unconstitutional and that we will just lower ourselves to the level of terrorists. Well yes, but these people are trying to KILL US. Do you think they cared about our human rights when they flew those planes into the World Trade Center ?

Its about time the US got tough.

Since we already lead the market in producing the technology of torture, and we execute mentally retarded people and children, especially if they happen to be black, it should be easy for us to come to terms with torture for foreign nationals. After all, most of them come from countries with a strong tradition of torture. They probably expect it.

	They should be tortured as much as possible (4.00 / 1) (#2)
	by seventypercent on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 03:34:58 PM PST

	All of this liberal bellyaching about the Geneva Convention really rubs me the wrong way. The Geneva Convention only applies to human beings. The creatures that the military is holding in Cuba are not humans .. they are animals. I can think of no other word to describe a being whose primary purpose is to kill as many innocent people as possible. This is not a human trait. As near as I can tell, Cuba does not have any specific laws prohibiting "cruelty" to animals. So I say have at them. Electric shocks, thumbscrews, kidney shots, drawing and quartering .. the whole nine yards. If anybody can demonstrate that the Geneva Convention was ever intended to apply to swarthy moon-god-worshipping murdering freaks, they are more than welcome to do so. Until then, I say torture them 24/7. -- Red-blooded patriots do not use Linux.

	"Liberal" bellyaching? (4.00 / 1) (#4)
	by afc on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 04:41:43 PM PST

	Last time I checked, Mr. Dershowitz was the consumate liberal champion. I just created my account at adequacy.org and lo and behold, already I stumble upon this. New for grown-ups indeed! Now, addressing your point, if we may call it so, understand that many of the detainees at camp X-ray are Taliban foot soldiers who probably had nothing to do with Al-Qaida's operations worldwide, and, if guilty of any atrocities at all, have comitted them in Afghan soil against Afghan people. I'm all for bringing to justice the parties responsible for 9/11 (I'm from NYC!), but that doesn't mean I'll endorse any irrational act committed by the powers that be in its so-called war against terrorism.

	Maybe the American people need this (4.00 / 1) (#5)
	by T Reginald Gibbons on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 05:06:46 PM PST

	Committing atrocities as a means of venting the emotional fervour of the population is by no means a new or unrealistic idea. After Cromwell finally secured power in England, he allowed the body of Charles I to be exhumed, mutilated and cast on the cessheap. This sort of thing is quite a valid method of giving the population closure after troubling periods. The sterility of the war coverage from Afghanistan has left us unsatisfied. With the body if Bin Laden not yet recovered, the American people need to feel that they have struck a telling blow against their adversaries. The government is giving us this in the cruel (and soon, hopefully, crueller) treatment of their prisoners. As a nation, we Americans are a cruel and pitiless people. We feel a visceral need to see the blood of our vanquished foes spilled in celebration of our triumph. As a left-leaning Republican, George Bush is entirely cognizant of this simple fact of American human nature. He does not wish to see needless bloodshed. He does not want to prolong the violence that the American people demand. It is easier for everyone, to see the twenty Afghanistami captives painfully mutilated, than it would be to watch American soldiers die in Iraq, bringing another enemy of America to his knees to placate the American public.

	cruelty (2.00 / 1) (#6)
	by nathan on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 05:21:47 PM PST

	I strongly disagree. The Afghan (which is to say, mostly Saudi) prisoners held at Gitmo are being treated far too harshly. Nathan -- Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

	Wow (2.00 / 1) (#7)
	by dmg on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 06:19:55 PM PST

	They have a McDonald's in Cuba ? No wonder they cling so doggedly to their Communistic belief system. time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration. -- MC Hawking

	Why so many people needed WTC (none / 0) (#16)
	by PotatoError on Mon Feb 4th, 2002 at 06:38:25 PM PST

	"Committing atrocities as a means of venting the emotional fervour of the population is by no means a new or unrealistic idea" "people need to feel that they have struck a telling blow against their adversaries" "We feel a visceral need to see the blood of our vanquished foes spilled in celebration of our triumph" I admit that killing 3000 civilians to remove Al-Quaeda from Afganistan was a good deal. <<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

	Torture for what purpose? (3.50 / 2) (#3)
	by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 03:54:26 PM PST

	While I have no objection to torture (preferably televised) as punishment for certain crimes such as terrorism or copyright infringement, I must object to using it as a means to gain information. There is no reliable means to test the veracity of information given under duress.

	Actually there is (3.00 / 1) (#8)
	by Peter Johnson on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 07:09:02 PM PST

	Start by asking them questions you already know the answer to. If they're holding out, crank up the voltage until they become more forthright. The key is to get the prisoner to believe that the inquisitor is both omniscient and interested in getting the torture over with. It's easy really. --Peter Are you adequate?

	It's not perfect. (3.00 / 1) (#9)
	by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 07:42:58 PM PST

	I admit your method would increase the likelyhood of extracting legitimate information. I still wouldn't trust it in a situation such as the "ticking bomb" Alan Dershowitz, though.

	doh (1.00 / 1) (#10)
	by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 07:44:06 PM PST

	insert a "proposes" in there somewhere.

	Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you (1.50 / 2) (#11)
	by astrix on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 07:57:14 PM PST

	"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" --Thomas Jefferson

	How about this... (4.66 / 3) (#12)
	by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 08:08:42 PM PST

	If I ever conspire to murder thousands of Afghan civilians, I promise not to complain if I am captured and the Afghan authorities torture me. Fair enough?

	Slap them around a little (5.00 / 1) (#13)
	by Orinoco on Sun Feb 3rd, 2002 at 08:54:21 PM PST

	I would support torture and execution only if it were shown on Pay Per View. I am definitely against providing coverage of this process on public access TV which, in my view, has the potential to be offensive to the squeamish and sensitive among us. It's time we stopped doing everything for free and got hip to the world of marketing.

	How sick are you? (1.00 / 1) (#20)
	by Anonymous Reader on Tue Feb 5th, 2002 at 06:27:05 PM PST

	Showing torture on TV? Are there actually people who would watch such a thing? What kind of people do you have in America anyway?

	Torture? Good Idea (none / 0) (#14)
	by Anonymous Reader on Mon Feb 4th, 2002 at 11:10:07 AM PST

	Let's offer them american women for information. They'd have to succumb to that after living with those Amazons in the Middle East.

	OK but Europe will then look down on the US (none / 0) (#15)
	by PotatoError on Mon Feb 4th, 2002 at 06:17:04 PM PST

	Europe will probably impose sactions on the US if it breaches human rights this much. You may decide that this is no big deal but if Europe isnt trading with the US it will be trading much more with other countries - such as China, Russia and Japan. As it is, I wont travel to america again as I doubt I will make it without my plane exploding. I definitely wouldnt like to travel to a country that may make a mistake, detain me at an airport and start using electric torture on me in some back room "interagation" room to try and make me confess about some drugs I havent got. Already european countries refuse to extradite US wanted criminals as they see US execution laws as infringing human rights. It will sure help you diplomatic stance with China though. Torture as well as execution gives your leaders something in common to talk about. I would expect the definition of terrorist to be slowly widened. I would also expect torture would be used against terrorists who obviously have no information - you know, just for fun. As it is you already break the geneva convention. I mean if someone captures a person fighting in a war - they are prisoners of war. Thats why so many people hate the US - it imposes rules on others but never follows them itself. Listen to all the crying when Iraq captured allied troops and wasnt treating them "prisoners of war". If you legalise torture on your own enemies I cant see how you will ever be able to brand countries as "evil" when they torture your own troops to obtain information. <<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

	Right. (none / 0) (#17)
	by hauntedattics on Tue Feb 5th, 2002 at 11:44:27 AM PST

	Oh yeah, because European police and security forces are absolutely blameless when it comes to torturing suspects... Just like how there's absolutely no racism in Europe, right? And feel free to stay on your side of the pond, cowering like the fearful loser you are. We'll do just fine without you, thank you.

	hmm (none / 0) (#18)
	by PotatoError on Tue Feb 5th, 2002 at 12:06:41 PM PST

	"because European police and security forces are absolutely blameless when it comes to torturing suspects" you suggest that torture is used in europe? Any evidence or sources to back this up? <<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

	How much fucking evidence do you need ? (none / 0) (#19)
	by Anonymous Reader on Tue Feb 5th, 2002 at 01:55:15 PM PST

	You smug complacent shithead. Its all here in black and white Now I'm going to have to whack you upside the head with the clue stick before and after shoving up your ass. Go to www.google.com, type in the words Torture, and Europe. Its quite fucking simple. Unless you can demonstate a little bit of a clue, I think it may be time to ban you from the most controversial site on the Internet for being inade quate.

	Right back at you (none / 0) (#22)
	by Anonymous Reader on Tue Feb 5th, 2002 at 06:43:14 PM PST

	http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webamrcountries/UNITED+STATES+OF+AMERICA?OpenDocument

	Can't believe this (1.00 / 1) (#21)
	by Anonymous Reader on Tue Feb 5th, 2002 at 06:38:18 PM PST

	What is with you people? TORTURE? Really? How much damage do you actually think american bombers have already caused in afghanistan? There were two red cross hospitals. Both were wiped out by american bombers. There was one private hospital. Also bombed by american bombers. These are civilians were talking about here. There are two million refugees coming from afghanistan so far, and more on the way. The bombs have killed and injured countless people. And the food dropping is even worse. One day an area is being bombed, the next day there might be food dropping from the sky, and the next day bombs again. Even worse is that the food often drops on heavily mined areas (Afghanistan is one of the worlds most mine-dense countries). People walk out onto the minefields and get blown away. Don't you think America has had quite enough of it's petty little revenge? And don't give me any sorry speeches about some person that was lost in the World Trade Center incident. America has already made up for that in killing afghanistan civilians. And of course, killing their civilians will bring back the people who died the day the planes crashed. Or at least it seems that it's more fun killing a lot of theirs for some of ours. They, referring to terrorists, destroyed a building in America, so bomb their, referring to the fact that many of the terrorists were from afghanistan, country.

	This makes me very, very angry. (none / 0) (#23)
	by Anonymous Reader on Wed Feb 6th, 2002 at 04:36:27 AM PST

	Do you really want torture to be the American reaction to a threat? America has already struck out at a defenseless country with unbelievable force, killing innocent people, destroying Red Cross hospitals and generally making life miserable for the millions of people who for the most part had nothing to do with the harbouring of the Taleban. Yes, it is true that American forces drove out the Taleban leadership was driven out and replaced by a democratic government, but much like the Gulf war this only happened when American interests were at stake. America happily ignored the Taleban, even though the attrocities committed by them were well-known to the outside world, until their own interrests were at stake. America has been hit by a terrifying attack that shows the vulnerability of our western way of life, but why should America bomb helpless countries into submission? Is there ANY proof that this action will decrease the threat posed by the Taleban and other terrorist groups? There's enough rogue governmends and hideout places left to build training camps. If anything, the brutal use of force by Americans will anger the anti-Americans even more, possibly leading to more attacks. As America is known to disregard the opinions of the rest of the world (think Kyoto treaty, think death penalty, think even now depriving the prisoners on Cuba of their rights as prisoners of war by not keeping them on American soil) it isn't inconceivable that they will stoop down to such a level. Making them no better than the people who attacked them.

	Let's clear this up... (none / 0) (#24)
	by Anonymous Reader on Thu Feb 7th, 2002 at 11:01:37 AM PST

	<I>Making them no better than the people who attacked them.</I><BR><BR> Actually, we would be better than our attackers, because we'd be getting medieval on their asses. As for your standard issue europlebe tirade against America's reaction to the WTC/Pentagon attacks, please keep in mind that if the Americans had undertaken to topple the Taliban prior to Sept. 11, europlebes (such as yourself) would have wet thier pants ten times over about what a gross injustice our interventionist foreign policy is. There's no pleasing europlebes. Good thing we don't have to.

	Your reasoning sucks (none / 0) (#25)
	by Anonymous Reader on Thu Feb 7th, 2002 at 03:32:04 PM PST

	The point of my reasoning is that the Americans DIDN'T intervene at first. I wanted to silence in advance anyone who would go on to point out the positive effects of the attacks on Afghanistan. America DIDN'T intervene until their own interests were at stake, which makes the liberation of Afghanistan a fortunate by-product of a a still unjustified response to the attacks of September 11th.

	All successful states use torture (none / 0) (#26)
	by CommunistPartyAnimal on Fri Feb 8th, 2002 at 04:55:02 AM PST

	deal with it and be careful who you fuck with :)

	Hypocracy (none / 0) (#27)
	by Anonymous Reader on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 06:39:01 PM PST

	I know I speak for quite a few people when I say that I am getting fairly disgusted with your mud-slinging, slanderous hypocracy. Apperantly, judging by your strong veiws on Lent, your petty site is deeply rooted, or fermented, in Catholicism. Now, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because you people have quite the knack for handing out swift but superficial judgement. Is not your belief system based around forgiveness? Its very unforgiving to write hateful slander on the World Wide Web. As I read the adversely repulsive crap you post, I think aloud, and my thoughts consern none other than Adolf Hitler. I bet if Hitler agreed with your views, then you'd applaud his methods. Feel ashamed. By the way, Linux rules. Written by a male 15 year old, e-mail mirexus@smurfs.com

	Hmmm... (none / 0) (#28)
	by hauntedattics on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 03:52:40 PM PST

	'Written' by a male 15-year-old? What a shocker.

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