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 Serious Inquiry about Paganism

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Mar 31, 2002
"Wicca" and neo-paganism seems to be a new "hot topic" around here.

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Neo-paganism seems to be a ubiquitous staple of modern society, but a vanishing number of people have any clue whatsoever about the nature of "archeo-paganism". Real paganism has absolutely nothing to do with worshipping the moon and believing in faeries.

As a public service, I provide you with a serious exposition of real ancient pagan beliefs.

For now, only in Russian. An English translation would be good, but unfortunately these are large, difficult texts. I currently do not have the time to make an adequate translation. (Perhaps in the future, in a different alternate universe...)

Anyways, I present:

"Mass Fears of Russian Children" (Focuses on the pre-patriarchy "feminine" paganism and ritual human sacrifice.)

"Demeter's Crypt", Part I
"Demeter's Crypt", Part II (Focuses on the relationship of the rivalry of ancient matriarchal religions and the subsequent takeover of the patriarchy.)

Have fun, but remember that this is very difficult and scary reading.


Real Paganism (none / 0) (#1)
by DG on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 10:59:51 AM PST
oh i know about real anchant religions.. mostly the celtic/norse ones.. they were very bloody and twisted by todays standards.. i read about crom cruach.. his followers would sacrafice babys by smashing them aganst a statue of the twisted god, he's a very old dark god reaching back to near stone age times, and then there is bel who they would give tribute to by garroting a stranger then dropping the corpse into a peat bog.. i don't really think much of wiccan it's tripe, nothing like how it was, back then people believed the gods lived in the ground, thats why people where found preserved in peat bogs.. then we have the norse, i focuse on woden the god of magic and war, they used to spear people then hang them on an ash tree like the story of woden, very brutal.. brutal practices for a brutal world nothing like that namby-pamby new age crap
2002, DG. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

oops (none / 0) (#2)
by DG on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 11:02:48 AM PST
sorry about no white spaces i didn't get much sleep so i'm feeling a bit worn out. my writing for what it is, isn't going to work very well
2002, DG. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

You have no idea what it means... (5.00 / 2) (#3)
by elenchos on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 01:36:00 PM PST be a real angry drunk Russian. Real angry drunk Russians alwasys spit when they talk and pass out before they finish what they are saying.

You ought to realize that the neo-Pagans and the wiccans are cut from exactly the same cloth as you. Look at the front page of Is it even about satanism? Of course it isn't. It is nothing but a tedious screed about who is the "real" church of satan and who are the poseurs.

Protestants argue about what the Bible "really" says they shoud think, while you Orthodox get into the most uninteresting fights with the Roman church over who is the "real" catholic church. You're all the same.

Why? Because the religious impulse is the desire to be absolutely right, in a very specific way. The problem is, the more right you think you are, and the more specific your beliefs, the less likely that anyone else shares those specific beliefs. And the more right they think they are, the less likely they will be able to tolerate you. And without the humility to check your theories against plain material reality, you all have no method to resolve your ever-increasing reasons to disagree except by making martyrs out of yourselves or your enemies.

If only those who were satisfied with merely being probably right about some things some of the time could keep ourselves safely distant from you who are absolutely right about everything all of the time.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

I agree with you. (none / 0) (#4)
by tkatchev on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 01:48:12 PM PST
I don't much like satanists, but at the very least they have the balls to admit who they really are. Unlike you. You are nothing but a sad little self-denying liberalist.

Peace and much love...

I might well be one... (3.00 / 1) (#5)
by elenchos on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 02:06:56 PM PST
...if I knew what a "liberalist" is. You know how much trouble I have with your "special words".

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Quite right (none / 0) (#6)
by S R on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 03:32:29 PM PST
You are quite right in your description of the strategy of religion.

Matriarchy? (none / 0) (#7)
by S R on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 03:36:19 PM PST
Where exactly did this matriarchal society exist? Only fools believe there was ever a matriarchal or egalitarian society in existence before the rise of the PIE and IE people (who most attribute with the rise of patriarchy).

There was a matriarchy once. (none / 0) (#8)
by tkatchev on Sun Mar 31st, 2002 at 11:10:09 PM PST
And it was the farthest thing from "egalitarian" you could imagine.

The wicked patriarchy is what actually gave us pesky things like ethics.

Peace and much love...

Woo hoo! (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Apr 1st, 2002 at 12:47:30 AM PST
Thank you! This gave me the biggest laugh of my day! God, you are too funny.

To quote Dr. Louis Binford, (none / 0) (#10)
by jvance on Mon Apr 1st, 2002 at 01:21:00 AM PST
You're welcome to believe that if it makes you feel all warm and gooey inside.

I won't dismiss the possibility of a few isolated matriarchal cultures, but frankly, the idea of some pan-cultural prehistoric matriarchy is ludicrous.

Note the distinction between matriarchal and matrilineal cultures. The Mundurucu for example are matrilineal but not matriarchal. The Yanomamo are patrilinial, patrilocal and patriarchal.
Adequacy has turned into a cesspool consisting of ... blubbering, superstitious fools arguing with smug, pseudointellectual assholes. -AR

Why is that? (none / 0) (#11)
by tkatchev on Mon Apr 1st, 2002 at 01:28:25 AM PST
There is some good evidence for a matriarchal prehistoric culture.

(I mean "matriarchal" in an ideological and religious sense, by the way.)

Peace and much love...

Claims about prehistoric religion (none / 0) (#14)
by jvance on Tue Apr 2nd, 2002 at 12:42:07 AM PST
are mostly smoke and mirrors, with the emphasis on mirror. Archaeologists dig up pregnant figurines, have no real clue what they mean, and so map their a priori beliefs onto it. "This must be a religious artifact." Archaeologists and paleoanthropologists have had a hard enough time just figuring out whether our ancestors were hunters or the hunted. Determining ideology and religion from old bones and broken rocks is just an elaborate Rorschach test.
Adequacy has turned into a cesspool consisting of ... blubbering, superstitious fools arguing with smug, pseudointellectual assholes. -AR

Excellent!! (none / 0) (#15)
by S R on Tue Apr 2nd, 2002 at 10:10:23 AM PST
I must agree. I have always said that anthropology/archaeology is a religion unto itself. Its amazing what people will come up with and state as fact based on such little evidence.

not that Pagans have ever (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by nathan on Wed Apr 3rd, 2002 at 02:57:45 PM PST
legitimized their beliefs with the crappiest kind of archaeology, of course.

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Where? (none / 0) (#12)
by S R on Mon Apr 1st, 2002 at 03:18:58 PM PST
Where was this matriarchal society located? What is the general time fram associated with it? Was it agricultural, pastoral or hunter and gatherer? Where can I find some reference to it?

I like to suggest "The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future", by Cynthia Eller, when people suggest the existence of this theory.

Again, (none / 0) (#13)
by tkatchev on Mon Apr 1st, 2002 at 10:02:59 PM PST
"Matriarchal" simply means that they worshipped "female" goddeses. Nothing more.

Matriarchy has nothing to do with social organization of people, regardless of what clueless feminists will tell you.

Historically, almost all Indo-European societies underwent a dramatic shift from matriarchy to patriarchy during prehistoric times; you can even see this for yourself if you carefully read e.g. Greek mythology.

Peace and much love...

No specifics? (none / 0) (#16)
by S R on Tue Apr 2nd, 2002 at 10:25:29 AM PST
This is all wonderful speculation, but I'm not seeing any specifics.

Let us look at the Indo-Europeans. We find *dyeu (to shine, also the form of Jove head of the Indo-European pantheon and a sky god). It can also be defined as sky, heaven, and god.

It might be noted that in Indo-European cultures the Goddess of Sovereignty is very important. The local Goddess must be appeased (or even acclimated) in some manner in order for the people to prosper in that locale. This often comes in the form of either King-Goddess marriage or Sky God-Goddess marriage (Bel and Danu or Zeus and Hera). There are probably more unknown Goddesses of Sovereignty than those that are known. They are very specific and personal goddesses, dependant upon the local geography and folk lore. They are often tied to an important well, stream, mountain, forest, hill, standing stone (predating Celtic immigration), etc.

What is the Goddess worship of Greek mythology that you are speaking of?


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